Looking for a guide

[Angela12]

What is your proof that you presently identify with a feeling as you?

HAHAHA! Okay I see that is a mistake. It’s just a thought.

Is that phenomenon that proves that you identify with a feeling as you actually yours or about you?

No, I see that it is just arising.

Is it actually possible for you to identify with anything or as anything?

Love that question. Emphatic no!

Look in your direct experience right now, and can you find anyone who could take ownership of a special, enlightened experience? And would any such experience actually be inherently more valuable or meaningful than any other experience, including present experience?

Yes, yes I see this now. Okay in direct experience anything that could be experienced would be definition be limited and therefore not an indicator or any kind of permanent state.

If there is an experience of cloudiness, in direct experience is there anything other than the experience? Is there an experiencer? Is there anything being obscured by the experience of cloudiness? Is the experience of cloudiness actually a problem?

Just cloudiness and a thought that keeps saying its mine and another thought that says it’s a problem. It feels like it is obscuring something and I kind of see this is another appearance but this one feels a little more “real”.
When I look in direct experience I see there is no experiencer. Okay, I was good until the last question because it does seem like a problem. For whom I don’t know but it seems like it stops me from being able to function.

Is there a you separate from thought? Are you sure there is anything other than thought when thought appears?

No, there is no me separate from thought. I see now that when thought appears there is only thought.

Is there something else that should or could be happening?

I see there is nothing else that could be happening but I’m not so sure that something else shouldn't be happening.

Are you sure that thought appearances have any design or intent, meaning or reference? If thoughts are appearing, regardless of the volume or speed or the feeling of overwhelm, is there anyone to take receipt of them? Are you separate from the appearance?

I see what you are saying but it feels like its happening to me even though in direct experience I see that it’s not. I guess I’m having trouble when I’m not in direct experience so to speak (and yes I do realize that I am actually always in direct experience). It feels like I have to concentrate on using direct experience and when I don’t “me” asserts itself.

brewera wrote:Interestingly I feel like I am the one functioning. Definitely a strong sense of me-ness there.

There is apparent functioning. Is there any evidence that there is someone doing the functioning? Is there a you apart from the functioning?

When I look carefully I see that there is only functioning and then an ownership thought afterward. I also see that I am not separate from the functioning.

Are you still waiting for a particular feeling to confirm that you have arrived? Does the feeling of me-ness need to go away?

It seems like I am still waiting for some type of confirmation- even with all your surgery this one hasn’t been removed yet. Keep cutting!!

brewera wrote:I see what you’re saying about things happening otherwise. I know things are just as they are but I’m not sure how to reconcile that with the actual demands of conventional life.

What could be reconciled? Is there anything apart from the actual demands of conventional life when that is what is appearing? Is there something apart from conventional life? What evidence do you have of a separation between conventional and unconventional?

I think it’s more a matter of direct experience not being fully lived (okay, okay, I know it always is but I think you know what I mean) or embodied or some such thing. It still feels like an effort (and I also know effort is just an appearance.

Much thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

Okay, I was good until the last question because it does seem like a problem. For whom I don’t know but it seems like it stops me from being able to function.

When you say "seems", what does that refer to? A feeling, perhaps?
When you say that it stops you from being able to function, what does that mean? Is there a findable you apart from what is happening?

I see there is nothing else that could be happening but I’m not so sure that something else shouldn't be happening.

What is your evidence that something else should be happening? Is there a you apart from what is happening?

I see what you are saying but it feels like its happening to me even though in direct experience I see that it’s not. I guess I’m having trouble when I’m not in direct experience so to speak (and yes I do realize that I am actually always in direct experience). It feels like I have to concentrate on using direct experience and when I don’t “me” asserts itself.

The use of the idea of "direct experience" is a guiding technique. But after a while it can become a hindrance. So now I'd like you to take a look and see if (by your own admission) all experience is direct, then how is it possible that an assertion of me is any less direct experience than any other experience?

Also, is the experience of "me" asserting itself actually evidence of a separate self? Is that experience inherently meaningful in any way? Does it need to go away?

Are you still waiting for a particular feeling to confirm that you have arrived? Does the feeling of me-ness need to go away?

It seems like I am still waiting for some type of confirmation- even with all your surgery this one hasn’t been removed yet. Keep cutting!!

Is there anything that you can find right now that is not already included and equally welcomed in direct experience?

I think it’s more a matter of direct experience not being fully lived (okay, okay, I know it always is but I think you know what I mean) or embodied or some such thing. It still feels like an effort (and I also know effort is just an appearance.

This sounds like more waiting for a particular confirmation experience or a shift of experience in some way that conforms to an idea. Please explore your statements that are quoted just above, and see if you can find any substance for them.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey:

When you say "seems", what does that refer to? A feeling, perhaps?

I’m pretty sure you already know the answer is yes- LOL

When you say that it stops you from being able to function, what does that mean? Is there a findable you apart from what is happening?

Oh wow! I guess I still think there is. It’s just getting subtler and subtler and harder to find. I’m hoping that’s a good thing. No, there is no me apart from what’s happening (I had to sit with that one a bit- weird how sometimes that is sooo obvious and at other time not)

brewera wrote:I see there is nothing else that could be happening but I’m not so sure that something else shouldn't be happening.
What is your evidence that something else should be happening? Is there a you apart from what is happening?

There is no evidence that something else should be happening apart from the thought which i see has no inherent meaning. I see now that this was resistance (a sensation + a thought). Again,the idea of a me apart from what is happening seems quite real right now. Took me quite a long time to see that this is not the case (not a me apart from…) I think it’s because I have the thought or whatever that the “world” would be there regardless of whether I am but I might be confusing me with my body. Help me out here.

The use of the idea of "direct experience" is a guiding technique. But after a while it can become a hindrance. So now I'd like you to take a look and see if (by your own admission) all experience is direct, then how is it possible that an assertion of me is any less direct experience than any other experience?

Also, is the experience of "me" asserting itself actually evidence of a separate self? Is that experience inherently meaningful in any way? Does it need to go away?

I totally understand what you are saying here. Even though you keep taking me to this place again and again I seem to forget or else the appearances are subtler and harder to recognize as appearances. Not really sure.

Is there anything that you can find right now that is not already included and equally welcomed in direct experience

?
No- good point

brewera wrote:I think it’s more a matter of direct experience not being fully lived (okay, okay, I know it always is but I think you know what I mean) or embodied or some such thing. It still feels like an effort (and I also know effort is just an appearance.

This sounds like more waiting for a particular confirmation experience or a shift of experience in some way that conforms to an idea. Please explore your statements that are quoted just above, and see if you can find any substance for them.

Yes, I see what you mean. I’m going to keep looking at this particular phenomenon until I see it for what it is- just itself referencing only itself.

Thanks,
Angela

[joeylott]

There is no evidence that something else should be happening apart from the thought which i see has no inherent meaning. I see now that this was resistance (a sensation + a thought). Again,the idea of a me apart from what is happening seems quite real right now. Took me quite a long time to see that this is not the case (not a me apart from…) I think it’s because I have the thought or whatever that the “world” would be there regardless of whether I am but I might be confusing me with my body. Help me out here.

Conceptually we can imagine anything and everything. But the question is, what can you actually, directly know? So take a look: in direct experience is there anything apart from what is immediately appearing? Is there anywhere other than right here? Is there actually a findable world?

[Angela12]

Conceptually we can imagine anything and everything. But the question is, what can you actually, directly know? So take a look: in direct experience is there anything apart from what is immediately appearing? Is there anywhere other than right here? Is there actually a findable world?

Yes, I see that. it's amazing how habitual thought is so convincing. in direct experience there is nothing apart from THIS. There is no other place than here (which is not actually a place), nor no other time than now (which is not actually a time). There is no findable world once you disregard the concepts.

My question now is how to stay in "direct experience" so I don't keep "forgetting" what is real.

Angela

[joeylott]

My question now is how to stay in "direct experience" so I don't keep "forgetting" what is real.

Good. Now we're getting down to it.

Can you do anything? Is there any chance of maintaining a state that you call the direct experience experience? Is there any possibility of avoiding the state that you call forgetting? Are either of those states inherently meaningful? Do either of those states happen to you? Is there a separate self to take ownership of any of it or control any of it?

Oh, and is there anything that is any more or less real than anything else?

Can you see the futility of the search?

[Angela12]

Can you do anything? Is there any chance of maintaining a state that you call the direct experience experience? Is there any possibility of avoiding the state that you call forgetting? Are either of those states inherently meaningful? Do either of those states happen to you? Is there a separate self to take ownership of any of it or control any of it?

Oh, and is there anything that is any more or less real than anything else?

Can you see the futility of the search?

Okay, yes i see that i can not maintain any kind of state given that they are phenomena and by definition not permanent. But how do i "know"myself as that which is permanent?

I see that these states are not inherently meaningful. I'm still less clear on ownership because unless i actively look in direct experience i still feel like a separate me. Am I running around in circles because I feel like I am?

Why can I see this so clearly and still not feel like i "get" it? Shouldn't (and I hesitate to use that word because I know you're going to question it) seeing clearly=feeling clearly. Shouldn't seeing clearly = knowing ( and i don't mean thinking) clearly.

Angela

[joeylott]

But how do i "know"myself as that which is permanent?

In this case isn't the knowing that you are referring to a transient state?
And who said anything about permanence?

Am I running around in circles because I feel like I am?

Is there any running around in circles happening apart from the feeling?

Why can I see this so clearly and still not feel like i "get" it?

Does feeling have anything to do with anything? Is a feeling state necessary or indicative of anything?

Shouldn't (and I hesitate to use that word because I know you're going to question it) seeing clearly=feeling clearly. Shouldn't seeing clearly = knowing ( and i don't mean thinking) clearly.

On what basis do you believe that this should be so?

[Angela12]

But how do i "know"myself as that which is permanent?
In this case isn't the knowing that you are referring to a transient state?

It seems to me that knowing is inherent in what I am

And who said anything about permanence?

What I mean is there must be some reality, some truth, something that doesn’t change. Otherwise what would change contrast against? And now I just realized if there is reality that than precludes there being anything unreal. So everything is made of that. Everything is unreal in a sense but real at its essence kind of.

brewera wrote:Am I running around in circles because I feel like I am?
Is there any running around in circles happening apart from the feeling

Apparently not.

brewera wrote:Why can I see this so clearly and still not feel like i "get" it?

Does feeling have anything to do with anything? Is a feeling state necessary or indicative of anything?

No, I see that it doesn’t.

brewera wrote:Shouldn't (and I hesitate to use that word because I know you're going to question it) seeing clearly=feeling clearly. Shouldn't seeing clearly = knowing ( and i don't mean thinking) clearly.

On what basis do you believe that this should be so?

Only on the basis that I want it to be so…and if I want it, then it feels like a “me” must be here.

Angela

[joeylott]

It seems to me that knowing is inherent in what I am

In that case, then knowing is already inherently present. What more is needed?

What I mean is there must be some reality, some truth, something that doesn’t change. Otherwise what would change contrast against? And now I just realized if there is reality that than precludes there being anything unreal. So everything is made of that. Everything is unreal in a sense but real at its essence kind of.

So does any doubt remain about this matter? Is there still a need to find that which does not change apart from what is obvious and already always the case?

Only on the basis that I want it to be so…and if I want it, then it feels like a “me” must be here.

Can you find the wanter? What is wanting? Does it require a wanter? Is it possible you are inferring something that doesn't exist?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

brewera wrote:It seems to me that knowing is inherent in what I am

In that case, then knowing is already inherently present. What more is needed?

Yes, I see that (at least for right now)

brewera wrote:What I mean is there must be some reality, some truth, something that doesn’t change. Otherwise what would change contrast against? And now I just realized if there is reality that than precludes there being anything unreal. So everything is made of that. Everything is unreal in a sense but real at its essence kind of.

So does any doubt remain about this matter? Is there still a need to find that which does not change apart from what is obvious and already always the case?

I know I can’t find it because it is unfindable. I’m not sure why I keep looking and why it doesn't seem possible to drop this looking. Is it just an appearance that shows up out of habit and by that i mean will it eventually just wear itself out? On the other hand, it is becoming clearer and clearer.

brewera wrote:Only on the basis that I want it to be so…and if I want it, then it feels like a “me” must be here.
Can you find the wanter? What is wanting? Does it require a wanter? Is it possible you are inferring something that doesn't exist?

No, I can’t find the wanter- just some random energy movement instead. I see that wanting is just a sensation and a thought, just appearing, meaning nothing and that it does not require a wanter. It’s just there.
Yes, it is quite likely I am inferring something that doesn’t exist as what I think it is. But it definitely exists.

Much thanks for sticking with me through this,
Angela

[joeylott]

In that case, then knowing is already inherently present. What more is needed?

Yes, I see that (at least for right now)

Good. Now, there are apparently moments when this is clear and apparently moments when this is not clear. So I'd like you to take a look carefully at each. See if you can distinguish the fundamental difference between these two experiences. They are experiences, of course. So they aren't meaningful. But seeing them as they are may be insightful. What do you notice? Observe only what can be observed through direct sensory perception.

I know I can’t find it because it is unfindable. I’m not sure why I keep looking and why it doesn't seem possible to drop this looking. Is it just an appearance that shows up out of habit and by that i mean will it eventually just wear itself out? On the other hand, it is becoming clearer and clearer.

You see that there is nothing findable. And you see that there is an apparent looking for something. So the opportunity is to recognize that the apparent looking is not yours nor is it anything to do with you. If there appears to be a habit, then does the habit have anything to do with you? Is any time necessary to simply be as you already are?

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

Hi Joey

Good. Now, there are apparently moments when this is clear and apparently moments when this is not clear. So I'd like you to take a look carefully at each. See if you can distinguish the fundamental difference between these two experiences. They are experiences, of course. So they aren't meaningful. But seeing them as they are may be insightful. What do you notice? Observe only what can be observed through direct sensory perception.

Right now i seem to be relatively clear on things so i see that there is no fundamental difference. i will keep this question in mind and take a look when it seems like there less clarity. from what i can rememeber there is what seems like another layer of appearance with lots of thought and feeling appearances. i know its not really another layer but that is what it seems like when it happens.

You see that there is nothing findable. And you see that there is an apparent looking for something. So the opportunity is to recognize that the apparent looking is not yours nor is it anything to do with you. If there appears to be a habit, then does the habit have anything to do with you? Is any time necessary to simply be as you already are?

i see the looking is just an appearance> i know that this is also an appearance but i feel like something has cleared up
since yesterday. like a layer of something has been removed. i see the appearances much more clearly and i see they are inherently meaningless. of course there is an appearance that looks like "i hope this lasts"

Having said that i now reflect and suddenly feel like a solid me but on some level i also know this is an appearance too. It all feels smooth right now

Angela
Sincerely,
Joey

[joeylott]

Angela,

This sounds clear. Let me know what you find.

Sincerely,
Joey

[Angela12]

HiJoey

Well...it seems my clarity was rather short livrd. on the up side it gives me a chance to explore the moments that are clear in contrast with the moemnts that seem unclear. I know there is no fundamental difference and its actually quite hard to compare the two because when they are happening its hard to remember the other. That being said, i thin the main difference is ease. One feels easy and light like evertything is just happening, all being allowed> the other has a distinct sense of disease> like everything is difficult with lots of seeking and resisting coming up. I know the clarity is there somewhere it just feels exhausting and efortful to make myself see it if that makes any sense.

i have noticed a pattern which might be totally meaningless but every time i have some clarity it is followed by a shit storm of seeking, resisting and some symptoms of physical illness like fatigue and pain. And as i write this i see that i am resisting those things and seeking peace in something i call enlightenment and i just want all of this to STOP!!

Angela