Looking for a guide

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

I do not understand "which is in itself is another concept". Do you mean the movement etc. or the noticing? Or that comings and goings, for example, is a concept?

The second statement – coming and going is only seen through comparison and thought. Look yourself. Especially below.

A reluctance to say : "Yes, I have seen through the illusion of self" comes up. Doubts come up.

So where is the doubt then? Where does it reside? Can you pull it out? Is it only in thought? Are you expecting thought to ‘understand’? Why?

And another thought: "I wish it could be as clear as it was 4 nights ago". Another thought. Who wishes that? It is just a thought.

What is the difference between this clear as it was coming and going life-ing and everything else coming and going life-ing? Is it a label of ‘yours’? Is it seen as being personal? To whom? To what?
Much Love Sarah xx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

The second statement – coming and going is only seen through comparison and thought. Look yourself. Especially below.

Ok.... so "not here", "here", "gone" is a thought or a concept describing movement? I haven't seen that. My cat just walked into the room and "the cat wasn't here one minute ago" is a thought / comparison of one apparent moment and the next? I guess I can see that. But it seems very interwoven with movement... I think I will have to look more closely at this.

So where is the doubt then? Where does it reside? Can you pull it out? Is it only in thought? Are you expecting thought to ‘understand’? Why?

The doubt is thought(s). That is seen clearly. Can I pull it out? No, it is just thoughts.......and there is no controller of thoughts. And, no, it is seen clearly that thoughts cannot understand.

What is the difference between this clear as it was coming and going life-ing and everything else coming and going life-ing? Is it a label of ‘yours’? Is it seen as being personal? To whom? To what?

No, this is not seen as being personal. However, the "I" (thoughts) is seen trying to grasp this and compare. This grasping / comparing (thoughts) is seen clearly.
Just now there is a confusion (thoughts) about coming and going...... I can see that the coming and going of this particular clarity as thoughts / concepts, and at the same time there is no coming and going of clarity, but thoughts about it (coming and going).

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

Ok.... so "not here", "here", "gone" is a thought or a concept describing movement? I haven't seen that. My cat just walked into the room and "the cat wasn't here one minute ago" is a thought / comparison of one apparent moment and the next? I guess I can see that. But it seems very interwoven with movement... I think I will have to look more closely at this.

LOL – don’t get too hung up on it – it will only take you straight back into thought!!!!!

The doubt is thought(s). That is seen clearly. Can I pull it out? No, it is just thoughts.......and there is no controller of thoughts. And, no, it is seen clearly that thoughts cannot understand.

Is there a problem with this? That thought doesn’t get? Because thought will NEVER get this! EVER. Thought wants to look at an object and ‘this’ is not an object. Thoughts sit in it, are it. But the sun cannot turn around and look at the sun. Try – have a look. Can the mirror look at the reflection?

No, this is not seen as being personal. However, the "I" (thoughts) is seen trying to grasp this and compare. This grasping / comparing (thoughts) is seen clearly. Just now there is a confusion (thoughts) about coming and going...... I can see that the coming and going of this particular clarity as thoughts / concepts, and at the same time there is no coming and going of clarity, but thoughts about it (coming and going).

Thoughts are slippery little critters!!!!! See how they now want to hunt down coming and going!!!!! We are so used to looking at thoughts first – especially for getting an answer or trying to understand. BUT the answer is not in thought – the answer is in direct experience. Thought is being forward or back or comparing, but really thought is just another sensation or feeling going off in direct experience. Look yourself. The answer isn’t OUT there – its here. Its ‘this’. There is nothing else. See how thought wiggle their finger and off we go!!!!! :)
Much Love Sarah

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

LOL – don’t get too hung up on it – it will only take you straight back into thought!!!!!

Yes, I certainly got my thoughts in a twist last night :) And the futility of that was seen.

Is there a problem with this? That thought doesn’t get? Because thought will NEVER get this! EVER. Thought wants to look at an object and ‘this’ is not an object. Thoughts sit in it, are it. But the sun cannot turn around and look at the sun. Try – have a look. Can the mirror look at the reflection?

No, there isn't a problem with thoughts not getting it, but I see that answering some of these questions takes me straight back into thought. And yet there is a knowing that thoughts will never get it.

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

No, there isn't a problem with thoughts not getting it, but I see that answering some of these questions takes me straight back into thought. And yet there is a knowing that thoughts will never get it.

So knowing this is the doubt still there? Where is it? Does that doubt actually hold any significance? Or is it simply what is? Is it a reflection on the mirror? Does the doubt need answering? By what? To who?
Much Love Sarah xxx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

So knowing this is the doubt still there? Where is it? Does that doubt actually hold any significance? Or is it simply what is? Is it a reflection on the mirror? Does the doubt need answering? By what? To who?

I don’t see that there is doubt. In fact, even on an intellectual (thought) level “no personal self” seems logical. So if a “doubt thought” happens, it holds no significance, and can be seen as just a thought. I don’t know how to put this, but there is a lack of interest in thoughts these days and a seeing that they hold little significance. And for long periods during the day, there seems to be not much thinking except for practical matters. So when the “old thought machine” accelerates, like it did two days ago on the theme “coming and going is a concept” this body/mind (I’m reluctant to say “I” :) completely exhausted itself, and there was massive frustration and the “I” identified with the frustration – and at the same time it was seen that the identification with this was just “I” thoughts.
I find it difficult to describe this. It is as if there is a stillness and a clarity and no doubts, and at the same time something going on on the “sticky “I” attachment” level . Actually, just now it came up that there is a belief that if “no self” is seen there should be more joy….. I feel pretty calm most of the time, but the word “peace” comes up. It should be peaceful and full of joy :) And the words that seems to describe the situation here at the moment is calm, tired, sleepy and not very energetic. Plodding along…… Going to work and counting the days to the Easter Holidays. There are moments of anxiety (not fear) when a sense of nothing to hold on to is strong.
Work requires a lot of effort these days. I wish I could sit on a balcony and look at the ocean. Wrapped up in a warm blanket……

Have a good evening, Sarah !

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

I find it difficult to describe this. It is as if there is a stillness and a clarity and no doubts, and at the same time something going on on the “sticky “I” attachment” level.

And is there anyone here to mind this? Or is it simply part of what is.

Actually, just now it came up that there is a belief that if “no self” is seen there should be more joy….. I feel pretty calm most of the time, but the word “peace” comes up. It should be peaceful and full of joy :)

Ah yes – Bliss! Well there is much debate over the translation that led to the word Bliss! I call it flatness – but does it matter the label? It certainly cant describe it as you so clearly stated! But the expectation is something else – look at that. You said a little while ago – ‘it cant be this simple’. But what do you actually directly experience – is it that simple? Thoughts will forever chase that something better – and bliss sounds fab doesn’t it!

And the words that seems to describe the situation here at the moment is calm, tired, sleepy and not very energetic. Plodding along…… Going to work and counting the days to the Easter Holidays. There are moments of anxiety (not fear) when a sense of nothing to hold on to is strong.

Lets look at this. Is the anxiety resistance to what is? How is the anxiety created? Is it through thought? Is the thought future based? Is it comparing? What is there to hold onto? Did you ever have a hold on anything? Is the thought trying to protect? What is the worst that could happen and is it a thought projection?

Work requires a lot of effort these days. I wish I could sit on a balcony and look at the ocean. Wrapped up in a warm blanket……

I will join you! But look at the story building here!
Much Love Sarah xxx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

I did not have time to post last night, but here goes:

And is there anyone here to mind this? Or is it simply part of what is.

I’ve just been sitting with this question for a little while in my garden. Looking for the “I” that minds. And finding nothing but a stillness / emptiness. When looking directly the “sticky” thoughts can be seen without the “I” attachement. And the stories they construct are very obvious. The stories are like flypaper for the sense of “I” here. Looking directly now I cannot find anyone to mind this, and it is seen as just part of what is. It just occurred to me that “fly” is a good analogy for the “I”. It moves quickly, settles here, settles there……and when you try to catch it (direct looking) you can’t.

Ah yes – Bliss! Well there is much debate over the translation that led to the word Bliss! I call it flatness – but does it matter the label? It certainly cant describe it as you so clearly stated! But the expectation is something else – look at that. You said a little while ago – ‘it cant be this simple’. But what do you actually directly experience – is it that simple? Thoughts will forever chase that something better – and bliss sounds fab doesn’t it!

Bliss sounds fabulous, Sarah :) And looking at direct experience right here, right now there is simplicity.

Lets look at this. Is the anxiety resistance to what is? How is the anxiety created? Is it through thought? Is the thought future based? Is it comparing? What is there to hold onto? Did you ever have a hold on anything? Is the thought trying to protect? What is the worst that could happen and is it a thought projection?

The anxiety is thought created and future based. Reviewing it now, on a sunny Saturday morning, I smile. But when I wake up in the middle of the night and thoughts create stories and a feeling of anxiety comes, I don’t smile…… You ask “Is the thought trying to protect?”, and yes, I think these thoughts are protecting the sense of “I”. They are made of the best fly paper :) .

Looking now I cannot see anything to hold on to, and no, I did not ever have a hold on anything. But there has been the appearance of having a hold on something / control.

What is the worst that could happen? Looking at this question a lot of stories come up, but this one wins the competition: Being “caught” in an “I” floating in space, totally isolated forever…… This is recognized as an “old” story of existing as a separate entity in total isolation. Being a pinprick of an “I” existing in an endless, empty space. As I said, this “story” is recognized as an old one. I will look at it more.

Have a good day, Sarah!

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

The anxiety is thought created and future based. Reviewing it now, on a sunny Saturday morning, I smile. But when I wake up in the middle of the night and thoughts create stories and a feeling of anxiety comes, I don’t smile…… You ask “Is the thought trying to protect?”, and yes, I think these thoughts are protecting the sense of “I”. They are made of the best fly paper :) .
Looking now I cannot see anything to hold on to, and no, I did not ever have a hold on anything. But there has been the appearance of having a hold on something / control.
What is the worst that could happen? Looking at this question a lot of stories come up, but this one wins the competition: Being “caught” in an “I” floating in space, totally isolated forever…… This is recognized as an “old” story of existing as a separate entity in total isolation. Being a pinprick of an “I” existing in an endless, empty space. As I said, this “story” is recognized as an old one. I will look at it more.

Appearance or thought story and belief? Thoughts think they are in control and have always controlled. BUT look behind what they are and do. They are like the lift with the voice saying first floor going up, but the voice over doesn’t raise the lift. Hearing happens without a hearer, seeing happens without a seer. Looking and hearing are seamlessly happening without labelling and a doer, then all of a sudden in comes thought and boom ‘I saw that’! ‘I am hearing that’. Look at walking. You rarely even think about walking and probably most of the tasks you do in a day – yet they are done. Where is the control there? And yet that little voice pops in with a single thought, followed by another and then another and before we know it – the whole story is there! Thought is our first port of call – we are so used to looking there for the answer. But it isn’t there. Look yourself - you 'know' this.

Pull that story out. Find that specific fear/anxiety. Ask thought is it really in control of what is happening and what will happen? Ask thought simply - do you still need to hold on ideas of control? Ask thought to look what is it in charge of precisely? Ask thought directly - what is exactly the issue? Ask thought if it's ready to let go of all ideas about imagined control? Ask thought what is in the way of letting go these ideas? Ask thought what is the worst that can happen if mind lets go of story about control? Ask thought if it's useful to hold on to stories about control? Ask it directly – what does it think it is protecting me from?
Much Love Sarah xxx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

I read your mail this morning, and spent my day doing some outdoor chores, and looking.

Appearance or thought story and belief? Thoughts think they are in control and have always controlled. BUT look behind what they are and do. They are like the lift with the voice saying first floor going up, but the voice over doesn’t raise the lift. Hearing happens without a hearer, seeing happens without a seer. Looking and hearing are seamlessly happening without labelling and a doer, then all of a sudden in comes thought and boom ‘I saw that’! ‘I am hearing that’. Look at walking. You rarely even think about walking and probably most of the tasks you do in a day – yet they are done. Where is the control there? And yet that little voice pops in with a single thought, followed by another and then another and before we know it – the whole story is there! Thought is our first port of call – we are so used to looking there for the answer. But it isn’t there. Look yourself - you 'know' this.

"Worst fears" are thought stories and beliefs. What you say above is very clear. It is all just happening, and , as you say, thought comes in and claim ownership. On a day like today, doing different chores like cleaning the car and some gardening, it is clear that this body / character does what it does. No more, no less. Regardless of the "opinions" of thoughts (that usually want more to be done :).

Pull that story out. Find that specific fear/anxiety. Ask thought is it really in control of what is happening and what will happen? Ask thought simply - do you still need to hold on ideas of control? Ask thought to look what is it in charge of precisely? Ask thought directly - what is exactly the issue? Ask thought if it's ready to let go of all ideas about imagined control? Ask thought what is in the way of letting go these ideas? Ask thought what is the worst that can happen if mind lets go of story about control? Ask thought if it's useful to hold on to stories about control? Ask it directly – what does it think it is protecting me from?

I have been doing this today (asking thought directly). And thoughts just seem to shut up.....:) So it hasn't really been much of a conversation..... Also looking at specific fears / anxieties I can see the stories behind them, or the stories about the stories. But, when there is no anxiety (in the moment) , they seem rather "flat".
Just now, what came up is that thinking may protect me from having no plans, no strategies. That's a form of (imagined) control, I suppose. And without that.....emptiness. Emptiness, not knowing.

So to sum this up: It is very clear how things / life just happens and thoughts is just the commentary (often "after the fact"). So I think I can say that the "I" of thoughts is seen through. But, I can sense that the "free fall" of no control can give rise to anxiety and contraction. It is not clear whether this is thought based (the anxiety) or physical. More physical, I think.

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

What is the worst that could happen? Looking at this question a lot of stories come up, but this one wins the competition: Being “caught” in an “I” floating in space, totally isolated forever…… This is recognized as an “old” story of existing as a separate entity in total isolation. Being a pinprick of an “I” existing in an endless, empty space. As I said, this “story” is recognized as an old one. I will look at it more.

Im going to back track a bit. What is wrong with right now outside of thought and story? This is something you can ask at night time as well. Ask with love Tove – the enemy created would again be thought saying things should be other than they are. Separation/isolation is created in thought and with thought – look yourself. This feeling of separation – is it there before thought and story?

I have been doing this today (asking thought directly). And thoughts just seem to shut up.....:) So it hasn't really been much of a conversation..... Also looking at specific fears / anxieties I can see the stories behind them, or the stories about the stories. But, when there is no anxiety (in the moment) , they seem rather "flat".
Just now, what came up is that thinking may protect me from having no plans, no strategies. That's a form of (imagined) control, I suppose. And without that.....emptiness.

Interesting. And how does this feel?

Emptiness, not knowing.

Story building?

So to sum this up: It is very clear how things / life just happens and thoughts is just the commentary (often "after the fact"). So I think I can say that the "I" of thoughts is seen through. But, I can sense that the "free fall" of no control can give rise to anxiety and contraction. It is not clear whether this is thought based (the anxiety) or physical. More physical, I think.

Keep looking at this. Go to the physical first – then see if story is attached and interpreting what is felt.
Expectation that everything will be clear sailing and that no more negative emotions will arise etc. Who is effected by anything arising? Again go back to the ‘it cant be this simple can it?’
Much Love Sarah xxxx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

Im going to back track a bit. What is wrong with right now outside of thought and story? This is something you can ask at night time as well. Ask with love Tove – the enemy created would again be thought saying things should be other than they are. Separation/isolation is created in thought and with thought – look yourself. This feeling of separation – is it there before thought and story?

Yes, I can see that it is just thought / story when I look. And that the feelings of separation / isolation / sadness etc. comes after thought/story when "I" buy into them. Many times during a day thoughts / stories come up, they are seen for what they are, and not bought into at all (or just for a few seconds). But, some times it is very difficult not to get "sucked in". I heard somebody once describe this as "Velcro thoughts"...... I will remember your question: "What is wrong with right now outside of thought and story". Vigilance is a word that comes up!

Interesting. And how does this feel?

How does this emptiness feel? It is difficult to describe. It's not unpleasant in itself - it feels like empty space with nothing to hold on to. Writing about it now, I think what happens is that "I" thoughts start commenting on the lack of something to hold on to, to grasp, and then there can be a physical sensation in the body which is labelled fear. And then the awareness of this space / emptiness is apparently overshadowed by thoughts.

Story building?

Could well be..... I seem to be good at building stories :)

Keep looking at this. Go to the physical first – then see if story is attached and interpreting what is felt.
Expectation that everything will be clear sailing and that no more negative emotions will arise etc. Who is effected by anything arising? Again go back to the ‘it cant be this simple can it?’

Will do!

Good night, Sarah,

Love Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

Yes, I can see that it is just thought / story when I look. And that the feelings of separation / isolation / sadness etc. comes after thought/story when "I" buy into them. Many times during a day thoughts / stories come up, they are seen for what they are, and not bought into at all (or just for a few seconds). But, some times it is very difficult not to get "sucked in". I heard somebody once describe this as "Velcro thoughts"...... I will remember your question: "What is wrong with right now outside of thought and story". Vigilance is a word that comes up!

What gets sucked in? Is there habit in there? Seeing either happens or it doesn’t – who is there to see? Forgetting happens or it doesn’t – who is there to forget? Thoughts!!!!!!!!! Always thoughts blaming, responding, chatting, getting stuck, blah, blah, blah….. A thought has to believe a thought – ironic hey? A thought bashes another thought for forgetting to look or getting sucked in!!!!! And then creates another story about velcro!!!!! LOL. Its endless! Hence why I said smile every time noticing happens! :)

How does this emptiness feel? It is difficult to describe. It's not unpleasant in itself - it feels like empty space with nothing to hold on to. Writing about it now, I think what happens is that "I" thoughts start commenting on the lack of something to hold on to, to grasp, and then there can be a physical sensation in the body which is labelled fear.

Yes. Simply notice and ask - what is wrong with right now outside of thought and story.

And then the awareness of this space / emptiness is apparently overshadowed by thoughts.

No not over shadowed – just part of what is. Attention flits where it wants and how it wants. All is reflection in the mirror. All is in and of the mirror. Look.
Keep looking at this. Go to the physical first – then see if story is attached and interpreting what is felt.
Expectation that everything will be clear sailing and that no more negative emotions will arise etc. Who is effected by anything arising? Again go back to the ‘it cant be this simple can it?’
Much Love Sarah xxxx

[Tessa]

Hi Sarah,

What gets sucked in? Is there habit in there? Seeing either happens or it doesn’t – who is there to see? Forgetting happens or it doesn’t – who is there to forget? Thoughts!!!!!!!!! Always thoughts blaming, responding, chatting, getting stuck, blah, blah, blah….. A thought has to believe a thought – ironic hey? A thought bashes another thought for forgetting to look or getting sucked in!!!!! And then creates another story about velcro!!!!! LOL. Its endless! Hence why I said smile every time noticing happens! :)

Yes, blah, blah blah......and then blah, blah, blah about the blah, blah, blah.....that about sums it up :). And add on a blah, blah thought about being fed up with the blah, blah, blah. And then another blah thought about "giving up on all this".

And then a laugh and a sense of a space embracing it all.

Love, Tove

[Sarah7]

Hi Tove

Yes, blah, blah blah......and then blah, blah, blah about the blah, blah, blah.....that about sums it up :). And add on a blah, blah thought about being fed up with the blah, blah, blah. And then another blah thought about "giving up on all this". And then a laugh and a sense of a space embracing it all.

LOL.
Anything else you want to discuss? Anything else that needs looking at? Anymore uncertainty? Anymore questions? Anymore seeking? Anymore waiting for …..?
Much Love Sarah xxx