Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

[Julia]

Hi John,

You say, "How about if we try deleting the word "mind"...

That's it, mind, thinking, thoughts that's where the self tries to hide, isn't it. Have been looking for it. Have i found it!

Overnight i have been looking at thoughts as they appear. Some are really weird and i can't understand what those thoughts are to do with. I felt like a watcher of thoughts. Practised some direct sensing throughout the evening when i was alone. Just watching the body, not expecting anything, it felt very calming doing this.

Overnight it seemed that the (self, me, I) is all to do with thinking and thoughts. Have searched for it as you know, and can't find it, using the senses, as something real. However, thinking thoughts seems as if that's where myself, i, etc manifests. It's all made up from thoughts. I watched thoughts as they came in, passed away or faded until i couldn't remember what they were about anymore. Unless it felt really important and relevant, the thoughts were hard to hang on to and remember. Last night and this morning, it all seemed very clear, as the day has progressed, the fuzziness has crept in a little.

"Is there a thinker"...

This feels like a trick question. I'd like to say yes and no. Thoughts happen and do their thing, then disappear on their own. It's weird. There's no shape, colour, location is in the head, behind the eyes. It's the brain thinking the thoughts.

Have i lost the plot and overthought it again?

Regards,
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

I will never intentionally give you a trick question.

That's it, mind, thinking, thoughts that's where the self tries to hide, isn't it. Have been looking for it. Have i found it!

What if we get rid of mind? What is your actual experience? Any mind?

This feels like a trick question. I'd like to say yes and no. Thoughts happen and do their thing, then disappear on their own. It's weird. There's no shape, colour, location is in the head, behind the eyes. It's the brain thinking the thoughts.

Great start! If your experience is like mine, then thoughts happen, come and go...that's it. No shape and color (colour) sounds right. But where is this head, what does it look like "behind the eyes" (what eyes?) Do you REALLY experience a brain thinking? I want to make a distinction between biological truth (which I respect) and direct experience...which is the only thing that "I" can really experience. From a conventional point of view, I accept what neuroscience teaches...but that is NOT my own experience. Is it yours?

Can you drop science without denying your education and bashing conventional science? Please simply report what you actually experience...and nothing more. Actually, what we are doing is attempting our own scientific investigation. But our laboratory is our experience, because that's all there is with which to work.

Are thoughts a thinker? Again, not a trick question. You've already noticed they appear and disappear. They are in no way permanent.

So...do you experience a brain or a mind? Not what you read about, but what you actually experience. Is there a self, which thinks, experiences, etc.? The answer should not be speculative. It should be based on actual experience.

Thanks,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Okay, 'mind' is just another word for thinking. You're right, actual experience is just about thoughts. Mind = label.

You say, "Great start"...

You're talking about direct experience again because when reading this paragraph i'm thinking "oh yes, it's so basic". Am looking out at the world through these soft, moist things at the top of my head. Can't see them, but can feel/touch them. Can't see from any other part of the body. The word eye is just a word.

"Do you really"...

No, in direct experience i don't even know what is inside the head that produces the thoughts. Direct experience in this way is so new.

"Can you drop the science"...

Yes. This is a new way of thinking thoughts. Have spent a lot of time up in the head, as you know. Okay, am ready to get in the gateless lab and work with direct experience more.

"Are thoughts a thinker"...

The body thinks. The body thinks thoughts. A thinker thinks thoughts. A thinker is a person who thinks thoughts. Where or what is a thinker? There's that wall again. I know it's coming down piece by piece.

When i don't get confused direct experience is a pleasant experience. Relaxing. It's being able to stay with it.

i don't experience a brain or mind. There's just looking out there and seeing.

"Is there a self, which thinks"...

Self? There's the body that's doing it all. Self, that's just a word for something that doesn't really exist, but is used everywhere. It's how we've been taught in this culture.

Thanks so much John. Will keep practising de.

Saturday is a busy day, will try to get back to you Sunday, otherwise definitely on Monday.

Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

First, may I ask you a favor. So that the context of the quote is clear, can you copy and paste a more complete form of whatever you are quoting. It will help immensely.

Do you really"...

No, in direct experience i don't even know what is inside the head that produces the thoughts. Direct experience in this way is so new.

"Can you drop the science"...

Yes. This is a new way of thinking thoughts. Have spent a lot of time up in the head, as you know. Okay, am ready to get in the gateless lab and work with direct experience more.

Great! This is the place to be...and I'm going to narrow it a bit further.

You're talking about direct experience again because when reading this paragraph i'm thinking "oh yes, it's so basic". Am looking out at the world through these soft, moist things at the top of my head. Can't see them, but can feel/touch them. Can't see from any other part of the body. The word eye is just a word.

Mixed with your sense of touch there are still beliefs and assumptions. Your sense of touch does not truly reveal eyes, skin, hair, etc. Just textures, hardness, softness, temperature...and as you say, degrees of moist and dry. There may be other distinctions, but those are the most apparent. Now, life goes on, and I don't want you to be impractical in your daily routine, caring for the body, caring for others, and otherwise all the interaction that takes place in the story called Julia. That story goes on, and I don't discount its importance in your everyday experience. However, for this investigation, keep as close as possible to pure direct experience and be willing to suspend all labels, assumptions, etc.

What I'm saying is that tactile experience is more raw and basic than you have described. Can you find a self anywhere using the sense of touch?

The body thinks. The body thinks thoughts. A thinker thinks thoughts. A thinker is a person who thinks thoughts. Where or what is a thinker? There's that wall again. I know it's coming down piece by piece.

Here's a perfect example of this. In direct experience is there any evidence that the body thinks thoughts? Can you see the body thinking, hear it, etc. You have interjected assumptions, concepts, and beliefs. Your direct experience of the body is more limited than this. Seeing hands, arms, fingers, feet, legs, etc. move in various ways. Seeing hands pick up objects. Seeing fingers type. Even here there are labels, but they are pretty basic labels, right? Other than what you have conceptually learned about the brain, do you honestly have any evidence from experience that the body thinks? And that "thinker"...where is it? Is it visible? I appreciate your honesty in not giving me the answer you know I want. But look for that thinker. If you can't find it, is there any evidence that it exists?

Self? There's the body that's doing it all. Self, that's just a word for something that doesn't really exist, but is used everywhere. It's how we've been taught in this culture.

Appreciate your recognition that the self doesn't exist. Please investigate whether you directly experience that "the body is doing it all." Do you see that? Just considering your field of vision; there is a lot of landscape, and various portions of the body occasionally appear within it. The body doesn't seem to play nearly the role IN YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE as you have indicated, not visually, not from an auditory or a tactile perspective. Isn't it just a part of the many appearances that come up and then go? You see that self doesn't exist, and that's huge. Just don't report experiences of the body that are not really there. Don't confuse everyday conceptual thought with your actual experience.

Thanks,


John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Just tried to put in quotes, but just can't do it. Will try again if you tell in detail how to do it.

From you last message, i can see that the DE has not been reached properly yet. This is so new to me. Its got to be really basic and i'm not basic enough yet. When looking for "a thinker" that's where i still am at the moment, isn't it. So are you saying there is no thinker. There is no self so that can't be the thinker. Surely it's the body that thinks? So it's about DE and conceptual thought. I need to practise DE more. It's soooo frustrating.

Thanks John

Regards
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

I'm okay if you don't use the quote function. It took me a little while to master, and it is cumbersome. If there is a statement of mine that you plan to respond to, just copy and paste the complete statement, so that I'll have the context.

Here is a link to one of LU's articles on direct experience. See if it helps put things in perspective.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

Here is Ilona's article on the gate.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... _Gate.html

Finally, here is a short essay by Elena on direct pointing.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... nting.html

While the idea is not to intellectualize about this, sometimes some words might help. You may want to browse through those articles from LU's home page and see what speaks to you.

Julia, many of your responses have clearly reflected direct experience! Don't get discouraged. Here's the central question for now. In ALL of your experience do you find a self that experiences. In you sensory experience, there is hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting, thinking...all going on. If you look intently, is it clear that they don't need a self? Don't they just happen?

Thanks,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Okay, when referring to one of your paragraphs, will print it all out, not just the first few words. Am only too happy to oblige if it makes it easier.

John, thanks for the articles, will look at them more tomorrow and will try to get back to you after that, or if time runs out then Thursday. Will reflect on your last paragraph also. Thank you.

It is perhaps frustrating for you to see me getting discouraged when it feels as if it ought to be so easy! I'm not a quitter, with your assistance this will become clear, just don't know when.

Regards,
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

Thanks for the response. It is not frustrating at all. The beauty of point is that it's an invitation for me to renew looking as well.

Will reflect on your last paragraph also.

Remember, the point is not to "think" about it. Looking is immediate, but have noticed that for some people (me too, for a very long time) it can be quite subtle. Once seen, however, the clarity remains...or at least can be immediately seen again.

When we say "look," try to take that as literally as possible.

Thanks,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Sat quietly last night and read the articles on DE. It was/is very helpful to read them. However, today the head and shoulders are very tight and tender so it's not a good time to do anything. Will get back tomorrow okay.

Kind regard,
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

Understand completely. A suggestion--when you feel physical discomfort, examine it closely. Find out where it is in your direct experience. Then investigate if there is anything that feels this pain/discomfort, etc. Feelings (comfortable, neutral, and uncomfortable) appear and disappear. Can anything be found experiencing them? Sensing is real. Does there need to be a person, a thing, a self that is experiencing the sensing/feeling?

Take care,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

John, the tension in the shoulders on Thursday was intense for the body and the thoughts began to focus more and more on the discomfort. There was no-thing experiencing this discomfort except the body and the thoughts this experience was producing. Still re-reading the articles you sent me. Thank you, they're wonderful. Because of past conditioning it is taking a while to fully grasp the Truth here. DE is a re-learning curve.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Because of past conditioning it is taking a while to fully grasp the Truth here. DE is a re-learning curve.

Hi Julia,

Go back and look at the subject line of this thread. You said "Would love a Guide to help me see the truth." That's it! Seeing the truth. Seeing happens in an instant. I know I tend to quibble about words, but "seeing" is so much more accurate than "grasping" and then "fully" grasping is even more problematic. When people say "grasp" in this sense, it seems to imply conceptual understanding. Julia, you will never conceptually understand it. I will never conceptually understand it. If you see it, it doesn't matter. Once you've seen it, you can play around with the implications but never exhaust them. Put that away. Look, look, look!

There was no-thing experiencing this discomfort except the body and the thoughts this experience was producing.

Let me challenge that statement. In direct experience there was no-thing experiencing this discomfort...stop right there! There's nothing else to add.

"I" realize that from the knowledge of biology and physiology that there is the concept that the body experiences pleasure, pain, comfort, and discomfort. I'm not arguing for or against that statement because it is a concept. But lay aside the teachings of science (without denying them), and is there any experience of the body experiencing pain, comfort, discomfort, etc. The body is an arising. It is a visual arising; it is a tactile arising. It's part of the view, part of the overall experience. The discomfort is another part if it is examined on its own. It's another part of the ever-changing tapestry. Is this what you see if you look?

Also, have you ever seen thoughts experience anything? If you describe the happening as barely as possible, thoughts arise, perhaps linger a short while, and they disappear. Have you ever really experienced thoughts experiencing anything?

Conceptually, the discomfort is in the shoulders. That's a thought, even if it's a "true" thought. To say that same pain was in your big toe would be an untrue thought. But they are both just thoughts. Strip away the thought and the understanding and just feel any discomfort. Close your eyes and feel the discomfort. Where is it located (without making any assumptions)?

So direct experience is less of a re-learning curve than it is a re-experiencing curve. And the question always goes back to this: What is experiencing? In direct experience is there anything experiencing all the experiences, sensations, thoughts, and emotions that arise?

Keep looking,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Okay, "grasp" was/is the wrong word, Truth is the right word to use. DE isn't a re-learning curve, it's a re-experiencing curve. Re-experiencing in a different way to the usual. It's a re-training of all that has been studied over the past 14 years.

If there's pain/discomfort or whatever, surely it's happening in the body otherwise how could we experience it?

You ask, "Have you ever really experienced thoughts experiencing anything"?

No, it's usually to do with things happening and then there is the most appropriate response that responds, although
it may not always be the best response. Trying not the use "I" as this self/me doesn't exist.

In reply to your last para. "What is experiencing? In DE is there anything experiencing all the experiences, sensations, thoughts, and emotions that arise"?

Without the body there would be nothing. With the body, the whole capsule, everything is experienced through the appropriate senses and emotions. So that is what experiences. There is no self/me/I, just this body.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

Without the body there would be nothing. With the body, the whole capsule, everything is experienced through the appropriate senses and emotions. So that is what experiences. There is no self/me/I, just this body.

Understand what is said here and the point. What is of concern is that the body is still a hiding place for the self. Does it help to equate direct experience with "first hand knowledge"? Most of what is known about the body is second hand knowledge. It is learned from others. The direct experience of the body is much different from this second hand, learned knowledge. That knowledge is important, of course, for physical survival, but can you see that it is not direct experience. Direct experience is more raw, more bare, more stripped of assumptions. Intellectually, you know that the body experiences all, but as that what is experienced directly?

Look while putting aside all learned knowledge.

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

You say, "Does it help to equate DE with firsthand knowledge? Most of what is known about the body is secondhand knowledge. It is learned from others".

Yes, okay John. Can see that you are saying firsthand knowledge is DE. Learned knowledge is secondhand. Yes.

You say, "DE is more raw, more bare, more stripped of assumptions".

Yes, have briefly been able to be this raw. Just can't seem to make it continuous. Have just re-read the article call The Gate by Ilona that you sent me. The following para. is very true from my view at the moment.

"The biggest obstacles are fear, resistance and distraction. Fear is a mechanism that is guarding illusion from being found out for what it really is. Resistance comes up through feelings and thoughts that you cannot do it. And the mind will play all kind of tricks to distract you from DE".

It's hard to explain, but any excuse to keep busy seems to come up at the moment. Don't want to use Christmas as an excuse.

Kind Regards,
Julia