Guide THIS please

[Hannah B-T]

THe mind appears to project itself onto them

What is this mind here? How does it 'project itself onto them'?

.egos playing off one another

What is an 'ego'? Can you find this ego right now and describe it to me in detail?

if no ego self or thought can do anything cannot be anything then we are watching life as it's played out though different view points and perceptions though all is one. and even this I know(intellectually) is lacking and not quite true.

Sounds like thoughts are drawing logical thought based conclusions...

Just look.
Like looking for a pair of keys, a pound down the back of the sofa. With the senses, right now.
Where and what are 'they'?
Where and what are 'you'?
Where and what is the dividing line? How is that perceived? (I'm using perceived synonymously with 'experienced' in this context if that helps!)

[Troy]

The 'I' thinks there is a Troy or at least identifies with Troy. Though neither can be found.

With all the senses...No ego or Troy can be found. WHat is the dividing line? - between they and the 'I'? ...? The senses perceive separate body's, clothing, Likes, desires. The dividing line appears to be at the body. But that is only intellectual knowledge not a experiential knowing. Looking is still happening and ..... nothing.

I want to say I am trying but Who is this I and You must do or do not. Sigh

x

[Hannah B-T]

What is this 'i' here that thinks there is a Troy?
The language is still not clear, can you see that?

Describe this 'identification' that happens...

With all the senses...No ego or Troy can be found

This is it.
Just this.
Mindbogglingly, ridiculously, ordinarily simple...
Is that ok?

The senses perceive separate body's, clothing, Likes, desires. The dividing line appears to be at the body. But that is only intellectual knowledge not a experiential knowing

Is there a self contained in the body?
What is 'body' in direct experience, i.e how is what is being labelled 'body' being perceived right now.
Take a look with both eyes open and closed.
Can you find a boundary between 'bottom' and 'chair'?
'hand' and 'table'?
'feet' and 'floor'?
'inside' and 'outside'?

Take a little time with this...

Looking is still happening and ..... nothing.

give me more on this...there is looking for an 'i'/Troy and none is found?
How does that feel?

I want to say I am trying but Who is this I and You must do or do not. Sigh

huh?
Is there a 'who'?

These are not trick questions.
They do not require analysis.
In fact some of them now are 'yes' or 'no'.
Let's keep it real simple.

[Troy]

What is this 'i' here that thinks there is a Troy?
The language is still not clear, can you see that?

Describe this 'identification' that happens...

-Thoughts come in constantly judging and perceiving the surroundings. But now 'others' are not seen as separate anymore.

Simple and Okay.

All is seen - no Troy no Hannah. 'How does it feel?' All has been seen for a while and it feels neutral good pleasant.

Since there is no me or Troy it feels weird to say I or me...I am working on just looking and seeing what you have asked and will continue to look at boundaries. This seems tougher. To experience a chair The butt can feel it and even the clothes between them. But intellectually there is no me and only life experiencing so there are boundaries but no separateness. difficult to explain. I will keep looking.

x

[Troy]

This is 'weird'. 'I' was looking and the thought occurred 'I give everything all the meaning it has for me' And everything - the chair table room everything just swirled into an indistinguishable mass. No boundaries. 'I' have been looking at this off and on since you pointed me in that direction and today the 'Thought' (above) came back to me from an old teaching and hit me.

So, no Troy/I or Boundaries, only One. Voices in 'head' still there and it's Okay. Still same old reactions occur from time to time but they are seen and quickly let go. Life is 'happening' more without judgment or criticism or at least letting the thoughts continue if it comes up. 'i' am okay with that.

x

[Hannah B-T]

Beautiful to hear...

Let's let things settle out for a day or two, it sounds like there was what i call a strong 'unity' experience that occurred. There will likely be a 'state' associated with that, like 'side-effects'. I like to see how things look when those settle and pass away (which they inevitably will). Then just answer this as staightforwardly as possible, minimal analysis needed :)

Can it be stated with confidence that the illusion of a separate self has been seen through experientially, in a different way than was being expressed earlier in our dialogue?


By the way it's fine to talk using personal pronouns without commas. Communication can be real clunky without them! But also fine if you find it helpful to do that. Language can get a bit shaken up with all this!

[Troy]

Yes. Explain 'experientially'. In terms of looking and absolutely seeing the illusion of the separate self. yes.

[Hannah B-T]

That seemed pretty confident! Cool :)

Are you ready for the standard set of questions we use on here?
If so great-
I will then show them to some of the other guides and we'll see if any further questions pop up...

[Troy]

okay

[Hannah B-T]

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
worksfrom your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6)Anything to add?

xx

[Troy]

1) No self no me no I. It was only a thought

2) I do not know where or how it began. At this point it throws thoughts out about anything and everything almost like a distraction but really it seams to push thoughts out of fear. Trying to judge everything as threat or friend. "Oh, you must deal with this and what about that?" Now it is something that just is, not to get fully adsorbed into and unconscious. I do not know where the thoughts come from only that their origin cannot be found when looked for. So, they start out of fear and yet fear is the general 'first' thought then it runs until it attaches itself to something that can viably distract.

3)I could somewhat see this before I started this dialogue but now awareness is the norm and not unconsciousness. I see the thoughts arise and as well in others. I don't necessarily have the David Hawkins experience of "How did I get inside all these people?" kind of thing. But it is seen. It feels like nothing in particular, perhaps easy or less effort as life just flows as the body is directed to do this or that. There is a newness only in that it is different from before. The ease is there but also a 'certainty' perhaps or a greater sense of certainty or rather surety may be is a better word. There is less finality.

4)To recognize even intellectualizing the concept of the egoself is still lost and not looking. The difference from knowing about to inner experience of actual knowing. To see even the thoughts about thoughts were still illusion. Below are the statements that seemed to help the most...

“Wait a minute!...

Ego-self= 'i' thoughts=thoughts
Can a thought chose other thoughts?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought DO anything whatsoever? “

And-
“The reason i can see that is a real sense that you can conceptually play very intelligently with expression of non-duality/no self, but that these expressions are recurrently taken on again as quite subtle beliefs that actually rebuild/recreate a new, more rarified and spiritualised 'story of Troy/awareness/life'. Hey. It happens. It's fine.
So I keep pointing that out/challenging that when that is seen to apparently be happening, because thoughts can be very tricky...and we go round and round... “

And-
“Troy. You are a complete failure.

How 'personal' is that sentance? “

And-
“When is there not presence?
What could 'let it be' or not?

Don't just give me the 'right' answers.
Really look.

And-
“'i' thoughts are not the enemy.
They just 'are'....thought-ing away... “

5)the 'I' may try to control intent, choose and all kinds of others things. But, No I do not do any of those.

6) only Thanks again for the help. Will continue to look and live as always – gently down the stream...

x

[Hannah B-T]

Just a few questions-

So, they start out of fear and yet fear is the general 'first' thought

Is 'fear' a description of thought only? Or are there sensations apparently coming before the thoughts. Take a look at this.

I see the thoughts arise and as well in others. I don't necessarily have the David Hawkins experience of "How did I get inside all these people?" kind of thing.

I don't understand this at all- what thoughts can be seen in others?
Where do thoughts reside?

the body is directed to do this or that.

Directed by what?

the 'I' may try to control intent, choose and all kinds of others things. But, No I do not do any of those.

I think you are saying 'i' thoughts talk about intent and control/choice- but it's clear those thoughts are not able to do what they talk about.
Is that another way of saying the same thing?
Could you give some day to day examples of this being noticed say in the last week (this is the second part of the question)- thanks

[Hannah B-T]

Troy? it's been a few days...

xx

[Troy]

I have been searching deeper. This...'Troy' thought that it is important to study and meditate to be thought of as 'spiritual'. All that was let go of. Life has been happening/flowing for days now and I have been watching the thoughts and feelings coming and going without being able to locate where they come from - which is no where.

I laughed when I read your question on fear...fear comes mostly after a thought, or rather it is very close to the moment a thought comes. Shock is the hardest one to see as it seems as though the event is first (someone jumping out at you) and fear comes instantaneously and then later thought. It is still seen but uncertain.

About the thoughts of others...I can see that they are having their 'private' thoughts and are unconscious but at the same time there is no them and me. This is difficult to explain. It is true that thoughts reside no where. But you cannot deny that the people around you are 'lost' in thought. And I can see that there is no separation, but my realization doesn't change their understanding. So, I see their position and their 'lostness'

You are correct when you said that the 'i' thoughts talk about intent and control but these thoughts cannot do what they say. mmmm....Where do the thoughts come from?...If there are still thoughts arising then there is still a level of unconsciousness. Interesting. The thoughts come from no where but here they still are. They can be seen and just as quickly as they are SEEN they go away. Seeing the thoughts arise is just another level of 'I' - lol. mmmm?

I watch my son who is 6 struggle to grasp reading and math concepts - He gets (what seems to be) tired until he has an epiphany and then his energy is better again. It feels like that as things clear or are seen. -Just a side note.

I'll respond more quickly in the future.

x

[Hannah B-T]

I have been watching the thoughts and feelings coming and going without being able to locate where they come from - which is no where.

Ok. Really?
Not even from 'an unconcious'? See below and later in your response.

.fear comes mostly after a thought

what is the word fear as you have used it her pointing to in your sensory experience? As body sensations. Describe it to me.

I can see that they are having their 'private' thoughts and are unconscious but at the same time there is no them and me. This is difficult to explain. It is true that thoughts reside no where. But you cannot deny that the people around you are 'lost' in thought.

Oh yes. I can perfectly well deny that.
There is 'body language' that is interpreted as 'lost in thought'.

But in that moment how is it known there were thoughts going on that are not being percieved? these 'private thoughts as you call them? Telepathy?
I have a word for that.
Imagination.

Dogs cock their heads to one side and look 'puzzled'...are they 'lost in thought' compared to the human? How could that be established?
Look deep into someone's eyes. Someone you love.
Look deep into the mirror.
Look into an animals eyes.
Can you see a self in there? An autonomous entity?
Really look.
And don't expect to like the answer.

A tree blows in the wind.
A human walks down the street.
What's the difference?

Make the expression in the mirror of being 'lost in thought'...
Were you?

Where do the thoughts come from?...If there are still thoughts arising then there is still a level of unconsciousness

Absolute rubbish.
Show me this unconcious. Outside of a concept/story about it.
Show me Troy. Outside a concept/story about him.