Seeking Guide

[neeeel]

I am not sure how to describe the place that I'm in right now. I cannot tell whether this is all still conceptual or a direct experience / deep knowing. What feels different is that the process still seems to be working through me, moving from a conceptual standpoint towards more and more of a sense of certainty.

Thats fine, if your not done, your not done. You are the one that needs to do the work though.

There is a lot of doubt here, probably related to all of the spiritual concepts and expectations regarding the "spiritual path" that I've accumulated through the years. Now I understand how someone coming to this without a background in the whole spiritual thing might have an easier time with the process (less to deconstruct?).

doubt is fine too. Doubts are just thoughts about stuff.

I guess for such a long time I had this belief that the direct experience of no self was supposed to be this mind shattering, big bang, ultra blissful experience, or something that only comes about through much practice.

This is what I was getting at when I asked early on in our thread what you expected to happen. You said you didnt expect anything to happen, but most people come here with at least an idea of what they think will happen. So ye, it may be mind shattering, big bang, ultra blissful. Or it may not. Having those experiences, or not having those experiences is no indication of whether you have "seen". They are just experiences.

I am reminded of your statement that I am already having a direct experience of no self, and my whole life has been a direct experience of no self. Can it be this simple and easy?

It is that simple and easy. If you see that there is no self to do any of the things we attribute to it, then thats it, you have seen through the lie, the belief in a self. You believed that there was a self that made decisions. If you look and see that there is no self to make decisions, then you are seeing through the belief.

If there is no self, then doesnt it follow that there never was a self, and that you cant experience something that doesnt exist. Saying you are looking for an experience of "no self" is turning it into a search for a certain feeling, or experience, and thats not what we are about here. The aim is not to experience "no self" ( how would you do that anyway?) , we are looking at the belief in self and seeing if its true.

You believed in santa at one point. Are you now having an experience of "no santa"?

I got into Buddhism because of dukkha. I have a history of depression and heard that Buddhism was about the end of dukkha, so that's what got me into meditation. There is still dukkha present, but there is less clinging to it as "my" dukkha. Depression is seen as one of the mental states this body/mind pattern has manifested, but it is taken less personally now. To me this means a lot.

Yes, its just another thing, like digestion, or liver function, or blood circulation.

Is depression anything more than a set of thoughts and feelings/bodily sensations? Notice how thought labels this set of thoughts/feelings as "depression". So already we are abstracted away from reality, because depression has so many other concepts associated with it. It gets labelled "bad", which means we automatically turn away from it, reject it, try and escape from it. When really, its just another set of thoughts and feelings.

Although we have looked quite closely at thoughts as an object, we havent really considered the content of thought.

Take a look around the room, look at objects, hear sounds. Do you notice what happens when you do this? What is happening in the content of thought?

[Don]

Hi Neil,

Your last post cleared up a lot of misunderstanding. I need some time to process all of this. Thanks.

[Don]

Hi Neil,

Take a look around the room, look at objects, hear sounds. Do you notice what happens when you do this? What is happening in the content of thought?

There is the perception / labeling of the object. From there I’m not sure what you mean when you ask what is happening in the content of thought.

With your previous post it really hit the point home, that the misperception was an unquestioned belief and that once the belief was seen through it cannot be unseen. It's not like I can go back now and believe in the self after this process. I'm still dealing with how this is playing out in my life right now. I think when I heard Elena say that her seeking ended, I wanted the same thing, but that was her experience and not mine. There is still seeking here, but that is just how this experience is manifesting.

[neeeel]

There is the perception / labeling of the object. From there I’m not sure what you mean when you ask what is happening in the content of thought.

It was the labelling I was pointing at. As soon as we perceive something, a thought pops up labelling it "car" or "monitor" or whatever. And we take the label as being real. It may be pointing to something real, but is the label the actual thing?

With your previous post it really hit the point home, that the misperception was an unquestioned belief and that once the belief was seen through it cannot be unseen. It's not like I can go back now and believe in the self after this process. I'm still dealing with how this is playing out in my life right now. I think when I heard Elena say that her seeking ended, I wanted the same thing, but that was her experience and not mine. There is still seeking here, but that is just how this experience is manifesting.

Is the seeking being done by anyone? What is it you are seeking? Ending of suffering?

Its true that once you see through the belief, you cant unsee it. Even having seen it though, it is still possible for the belief to operate, if the emotions are strong, or if you are not aware that the belief is operating. So there may still be suffering, anger , etc even after seeing through the belief, because there is no entity who sees through the belief, and can then just stop believing.

I am not sure how to help you further. Are you clear that you have seen through the belief? If so, we could do the traditional questions for you to answer, other guides to look at and confirm that you have seen. Then there are all sorts of facebook groups to help with the aftermath, to discuss, or even to look further.

Otherwise I am happy to still guide you in this thread. You could maybe tell me about any areas that arent clear, or if there are doubts or questions you have that need cleared up?

[Don]

It was the labelling I was pointing at. As soon as we perceive something, a thought pops up labelling it "car" or "monitor" or whatever. And we take the label as being real. It may be pointing to something real, but is the label the actual thing?

The label is never the actual thing, just another thought.

Is the seeking being done by anyone? What is it you are seeking? Ending of suffering?

It’s the same as with anything else in experience - thoughts without a thinker, seeking without a seeker. I am not even sure what the seeking is seeking after anymore - an idea of enlightenment? As for the ending of suffering this process has helped with suffering in ways I am still discovering so what more could I ask for? The spiritual identity that was identified with so strongly in the past has started to fall apart and is being seen through. There is a weariness of all of the endless spiritual teachings and concepts and more of a seeking of direct experience. No time for second hand / dead truths anymore.

Its true that once you see through the belief, you cant unsee it. Even having seen it though, it is still possible for the belief to operate, if the emotions are strong, or if you are not aware that the belief is operating. So there may still be suffering, anger , etc even after seeing through the belief, because there is no entity who sees through the belief, and can then just stop believing.

Yes, I get this. It happens so fast as a part of the chain reaction of cause and effect – but because of the understanding that there is no chooser and choice is just happening there is a lot less attachment to the way life is playing out now, and if attachment arises there is an okayness with that as well – as if “I” had a choice in the matter anyhow. Noticing / observing happens when it happens, and if strong emotions arise or mindfulness is not present it is okay.

I am not sure how to help you further. Are you clear that you have seen through the belief?

I feel the same way. I’m not sure what else I could do from this point on. How would I gauge or measure the amount of clarity with which the belief is seen through? When I try to answer your question it’s just more thoughts arising – what is the difference between thoughts of doubt and thoughts of clarity – just more thoughts about thoughts that lead nowhere.

If so, we could do the traditional questions for you to answer, other guides to look at and confirm that you have seen. Then there are all sorts of facebook groups to help with the aftermath, to discuss, or even to look further.

I purposely didn't look at others answers when the traditional questions came up because I wanted to answer as truthfully as I could from my own experience throughout this process. Yes it would be interesting to join the facebook group to see how others are doing after this process.

Otherwise I am happy to still guide you in this thread. You could maybe tell me about any areas that arent clear, or if there are doubts or questions you have that need cleared up?

No questions left.

[neeeel]

ok, heres the questions


1) Is there a separate entity, a me, a self, an I, anywhere , in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, and how it works, from your own experience, Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this.What is different from before you started this process? Please report from the last few days

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide , intend, choose, control events in life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) anything to add?

[Don]

1) Is there a separate entity, a me, a self, an I, anywhere , in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There was/is the illusion of a seperate entity, a me/self/I, but that illusion can be seen for what it is, just an unquestioned belief.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, and how it works, from your own experience, Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self was a belief passed down to me as a child from my family and society to help me to navigate the world. It also makes communication possible (and easier). The belief conditioned me to think that I had the power to make things happen. Something happens, and the I belief arises and says I made it happen. Thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions, and choices happen and the illusion of self made me believe that I was the one that owned or did them, but when investigated it is seen that this body and mind is a part of a vast and interconnected play of cause and effect, with the belief in a self included in this stream of cause and effect, and also the seeing through the belief as well.

3) How does it feel to see this. What is different from before you started this process? Please report from the last few days.

This is definitely a game changer. The mistakes I've made are seen in a much different light. The "imperfect" choices I've made in the past are seen as the only choices I could've made. When seen from this new perspective, there is a sense of letting go or forgiveness. This is huge, and I can't imagine how this is going to play out in the future. There is a lightness now, as if a heavy weight has been lifted from me. If there is no control over life, then it's either surrender to the ride or suffer.

When going out in public I used to be really self-conscious and have a lot of anxiety about the way I was perceived, but now it doesn't make sense to care what others think of me, because neither they nor I have control over what they think of me. Thoughts still arise about caring what others think of me, but it's quickly seen through. The want to control others has dissipated, as for the need to have people like me. The depression has changed for the better as well. I am not expecting any of this to last, since I can't make it last.

My interactions and relationships with the important people in my life have also changed for the better. There is more acceptance and less resistance here to whatever is arising.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It happened gradually through this process, after observation and reflection, so I can't point to a "last bit." I think when you told me that the "seeing" happens with or without the big "spiritual experience" that I was secretly hoping for, it made the doubts fall away and I didn't discount my own experience.

5) Do you decide , intend, choose, control events in life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No self means no control. All of life happens on it's own, with or without the belief in a self. If there really was a self with the power to make things happen, then I should be able to decide to do something and then do it. When investigated, I've seen that this is not the case.

6) anything to add?

I'm so thankful to you and to everyone here who is doing this work. This is not what I expected when I started this process, but like I said before, there is a fascination with seeing how this will all play out in this life.

[neeeel]

hi don. Thanks for your answers. Mostly very clear. One small request, can you give some examples from your own experience for question 5. This just helps guides be able to confirm that you have seen clearly.

[Don]

hi don. Thanks for your answers. Mostly very clear. One small request, can you give some examples from your own experience for question 5. This just helps guides be able to confirm that you have seen clearly.

One example I can give is New Year's resolutions I've made, or any kind of desire to change a habit. Why is it that sometimes I can change habits and sometimes I can't? If there really was this "I" behind decisions, intentions, choices, etc., then wouldn't it make sense that I would always choose to do things that are not harmful to myself and others? But when I reflect on my past and when I observe how this happens in my own experiences throughout this inquiry, I see that that is not the case. Even though the intention to eat healthy is there, I end up eating something not healthy. Even though I have the intention to be a good listener, I get lost in thoughts and completely miss portions of conversation. I decide to study or do homework and then end up on the internet or at the movies with friends. Where is the control in that? It's because I've never had control in the first place, and control is just an illusion like the self.

I hope this was a clear example. If this isn't sufficient I can look for more examples. Thanks!

[neeeel]

hi, some guides have had a look at the thread and are happy that everything is clear.

Pm me your facebook name and I will add you to facebook and give you the link to the initial group.

neil

[Don]

Hi Neil,

Thanks again for taking the time and energy to guide me. I'm forever grateful.

Don

[neeeel]

no problem. It was a pleasure :D

I was assuming that you wanted to join the facebook groups. If not, no worries

neil

[Don]

Hi Neil,

I'll pm you. Thanks again!

Don