The Gate

Sage,

I still habitually believe a lot of my thoughts about "others". I need to spend more time holding those thoughts up against DE.

It's just not as difficult as you're making it. You don't need to integrate everything instantly; habits weren't born overnight and they won't disappear overnight.

What is it that you are expecting liberation to be, feel like, do, or deliver?
It's really so obvious yet so subtle: it's exactly what is here, happening, now. Already. There is already no self and no other at all. It's not waiting for you to see it; it's here now.

What happens when you're not thinking about "others"; do others even exist outside of your thoughts about them?

I suppose they can't, but I'm not yet focused enough examine that.

You've gone back to thinking about, rather than simply looking to see whether there is a self or an other.

I know you don't like the sensation exercises, but they are what demonstrates "what's actually happening" for you. The more you try to 'understand', the less you can SEE. Don't Think; LOOK!

love
Nona

Hi Nona!

I know you don't like the sensation exercises

I quite like the sensation exercises themselves, and I've been looking at sensation directly a great deal in the last few weeks. I just don't like the reporting after the fact, both in the reporting itself with it's compromising words and in the ways that it adds layers of anticipatory thought that interfere with DE right in the moment.

I also don't understand how reporting sensation through language can tell you where I'm at. No language can articulate the experience accurately and there are myriad ways you can interpret my words and myriad ways I can manipulate them. And I don't use manipulate in the negative way - just to say that I could give many different accounts of the same experience that would all be equally (in)accurate and emphasize different things.

I've been working my way through the app in order and I'm nearly to the exercises. Maybe something there will add another angle.

What is it that you are expecting liberation to be, feel like, do, or deliver?

I'll also have to look a little deeper to figure out what expectation(s) might be holding me back. I think it's entirely possible that I've seen it and just need time to integrate it. But yes, there is a feeling that there should be more. DE has corroborated the theories. The understanding feels intellectual rather than embodied, but "understanding" might be only of the mind and therefor intellectual by definition. So maybe that's all it is. I guess I've been expecting some kind of somatic understanding. Now that I look at that expectation I can't imagine how it could manifest.

Any thoughts on that?

Love,

S

Sage,

Any thoughts on that?

Yes: quit Thinking and LOOK! Observe with your senses! It's all around you: this is IT.

love
Nona

Dear Sage,

It occurs to me to point out that there is NEVER a time when you are not having sensations; direct experience is ALL the time, everywhere! The problem occurs when we submit our direct experience to the judgment of thought, because thought is where the illusion of a separate self has been constructed in the first place. Thought cannot see through thought.

I agree that no language can adequately convey exactly sensations in DE; the point in reporting from direct experience is to circumvent the thoughts that co-opt sensation as evidence, or proof, that the thoughts are true. As in

DE has corroborated the theories.

Of course "The understanding feels intellectual rather than embodied". There is no such thing as "understanding" in DE! I can't force you to experience the illusion; you have everything you need to see it except the burning desire to release the thinking-self.

with love
Nona

Hi Nona,

It occurs to me to point out that there is NEVER a time when you are not having sensations; direct experience is ALL the time, everywhere! The problem occurs when we submit our direct experience to the judgment of thought, because thought is where the illusion of a separate self has been constructed in the first place. Thought cannot see through thought.

Yes, I am aware of all that, I am experiencing all that. I know all that to be true, directly.

I agree that no language can adequately convey exactly sensations in DE; the point in reporting from direct experience is to circumvent the thoughts that co-opt sensation as evidence, or proof, that the thoughts are true. As in

DE has corroborated the theories.

I'm not sure I follow this. How does the reporting circumvent those thoughts? The thoughts will arise, or they won't. I'll question them, or I won't. How might reciting descriptions to you of what I experience change any of that?

For what it's worth I think we're having language problems here again. I understand why you object to the statement "DE has corroborated the theories". I know that the theories are only empty ideas. I know that that statement appears to make DE subordinate to thoughts. I know that DE is real and thoughts are real only in experience, not in content.

Of course "The understanding feels intellectual rather than embodied". There is no such thing as "understanding" in DE!

I understand that as well. That's what I was getting at with the comment "Now that I look at that expectation I can't imagine how it could manifest." I guess I should have elaborated on that.

I can't force you to experience the illusion; you have everything you need to see it except the burning desire to release the thinking-self.

What thinking self? My thoughts? I can't release them. What are you referring to?

love,

S

There is more than a language problem here, dear Sage. I just can't get a handle on where you are in this inquiry, at all. I'm not able to take it any further.

If you wish, I will ask for another guide to pick this up; alternatively, you could PM a guide with whom you resonate.

with much love,
Nona

Hi Nona,

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm extremely grateful for the guidance you've given me so far.

I'll take some time and choose another guide to approach.

Thanks again for all your help,

love,

Sage

You are very welcome.

love,
Nona

Hi Nona, I have seen it. Thanks again. You got me there, I just needed some time to settle in to it.

Love,

Sage

That's FABulous!! I am truly delighted. Please describe how it happened!

with all my love,
Nona

Hi Nona :)

The process has been very gradual. It was weeks ago that I got to the point where I saw self as unfindable, but I wasn't feeling confident that I had seen all that there was to see. I was trying to dissolve a lot of different illusions that are tied to the illusion of self, not realizing that I didn't need to see through them all in order to just recognize there's no self to find.

As an aside, to be perfectly honest I still prefer the "unfindable" terminology, but as an unfindable self has no relevance to my life that I can see I'll use the no-self description from here on in. I'm comfortable with that label and it feels fair in that there is no self to be found in my direct experience.

At any rate, over the last several weeks I've spent a great deal of time looking and seeing clearly that everything I had taken to be a self was just thoughts, and to a certain degree a body. But there is no ownership of the body, and the emptiness of the thoughts has become more and more clear. I think that has been the biggest factor for me - not just recognizing that self is only in thoughts, but seeing through the long held belief that thoughts have some sort of weight and substance.

I see clearly now that everything just happens. The sense of self is still sometimes present, but it has been weeks since I've felt like I've made a decision or acted. It's all just happenings.

The other thing that held me back was the expectation that there would be a sudden freedom and lightness. I haven't had that. But over the last few months (recall that I had seen no-decider before I came to LU so the process was already underway) I've gradually found myself more and more content, less reliant on external conditions for happiness, and less prone to stressful mental chatter. But it has occurred gradually and I wasn't really aware of it until I looked. Events that would have been incredibly difficult for me a year ago have been quite comfortable.

So thank you again. Gratitude arises for the realization that has occurred :)

S

Dearest Sage,

This was delightful to read!

You write

I wasn't feeling confident that I had seen all that there was to see.

You haven't. Seeing through the illusion that one is or has a self that is somehow separate from the movement of Life is just a beginning.

not just recognizing that self is only in thoughts, but seeing through the long held belief that thoughts have some sort of weight and substance.

Yes. So good to see this!!

The sense of self is still sometimes present

Of course it is! It's a XX-year-long habit; it's unlikely to disappear overnight. But seeing clearly that sense-of-self is not an actual entity "self" frees us from the anchor that "self" once was.

the expectation that there would be a sudden freedom and lightness

Our expectations of what liberation is going to be are obstacles to seeing the illusion. I'm so grateful you were able to see around that one!!

I have a few questions to ask to tease out anything that we might want to look at more closely:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

With much love,
Nona

Hi Nona!

You write

I wasn't feeling confident that I had seen all that there was to see.

You haven't. Seeing through the illusion that one is or has a self that is somehow separate from the movement of Life is just a beginning.

Agreed! I just had to let go of the idea that seeing through self required seeing through anything else!


I have a few questions to ask to tease out anything that we might want to look at more closely:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusory self is a complex web of thoughts. These thoughts are introduced at a young age and reinforced by language and social conditioning. These thoughts can trigger physical/emotional responses in the body, and the reality and intensity of those sensations is often projected onto the thoughts. Without examination these thoughts and feelings can seem to be inextricably bound together. Thoughts of the self reinforce themselves in many ways. As well as emotionally based sensations they reference memory thoughts and time thoughts and create an illusion of continuity. They classify and categorize and invent familiarity with certain experiences, then identify the familiar as part of the self. They take ideas that can only point to a moment in time and use them as fixed labels.

These thoughts rely on acceptance of the subject/object duality, which is ingrained at a young age. Once that assumption is made the thoughts can point to any real experience and "prove" the self by owning the experience. The observer can't deny the experience, so the "experiencer" is accepted as truth too.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't feel much different. There's a little bit of relief when I recall the strain that accompanied the belief in control. There is more ease in living. I'm more content, less easily stressed. I see more humour and absurdity in life. Thoughts are lighter and more transparent. It's becoming easier to filter out the thoughts that interfere with seeing DE clearly. There is less mental chatter.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It's hard to say since it was such a gradual process. I found I had great conviction in the idea, and that made me question and dismiss the doubts I had held about whether I had seen it. I looked to see if it was only the idea that I believed in or if it was the experience. Early in the process exercises looking at action and intention were some of the most powerful tools for me. Then it was just a process of eliminating all the little things that seemed like self but couldn't be.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Not at all. It's like falling asleep - pretty much everybody will admit that they don't control the moment sleep comes. It just does. Upon examination I've seen nothing in life that is any different from falling asleep. Life happens, actions and reactions occur. There was no "I" to look past the illusion, looking just occurred. Thoughts arise, actions may or may not follow. I'm finding it quite entertaining to see that process unfold. Awareness sees "There's a thought... oh look! the body is following up on it!"

6) Anything to add?

I know there's so much more to see but it's nice, there's no pressure on "me" to look. It will all just unfold. I'm really grateful to have seen this much already, and for all the guidance I received.

With love,

S

Dear Sage,

Welcome Home.

with all my heart,
Nona