Charlie Looking for a Guide +

[charlieaa]

1000 PDT 8-8-13
Hi Silvia,

Your words snapped me out of it.

Well, of course the mind takes credit for it. Because the mind does it!! The question is, have you mistaken yourself for the mind? are you the mind Charlie?

NO. Finally! that is seen.

Do you control over the mind? . . .Do you have anything to do the workings of the mind. Did you teach the mind to remember? Did you program it? Can you control your mind in any way?Look, ask the questions, then report on what you see.

No, No, .. . . What is now seen is that this mind-the thought stream-is on it's own.

It's the same we are doing here but with direct experience. Instead of your wallet we are looking at thoughts, emotions, and physical sensations. We are opening them up, so to speak, and looking if there is a "you" involved in any of it. Are you with me on this?

YES!! Finally!! What a breath of fresh air.

OK, once again:

Are you the thinker of your thoughts Charlie?
Can you find a thinker of thoughts, or are they just thoughts?
Are you in control, in any way,

NO

of the constant thought-stream that you describe?
Do you choose what thoughts to have, and what thoughts not to have, and when?
Are you able to stop thoughts from happening?
Just look. Close your eyes if it helps, and watch how thoughts happen. And use the questions I've given you as pointers. Then answer. Let's try again. Are you the thinker of the thoughts? Close your eyes. That happening right there. That feeling of being alive, or energy and whatever is arising in that moment. That's you. Now, is that the thinker of the thoughts?

NO ,no,no to each! With each re-reading of these questions, it is all seen more clearly. i.e., the questions are asked in the light of present experience and NO keeps coming up.

Thank You!

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Charlie

Excellent! It sounds like there is real confidence in your answers now. You are no longer second-guessing youself. Good! What a relief, no?

What about the seeing, the hearing, the smells, the tactile sensations, the taste?
Can you find a separate you doing any of them. Do you make hearing happen? or does hearing happen effortlessly?

Love x

[charlieaa]

13:15 PDT Thurs 8/8/13
Hello! Silvia,

What about the seeing, the hearing, the smells, the tactile sensations, the taste?
Can you find a separate you doing any of them. Do you make hearing happen? or does hearing happen effortlessly?

With each re-reading of these questions, it is all seen more clearly.

Yesterday and today - since your Wed post, there is new seeing - of the above perceptions + thoughts/mind coming up with no effort from me. I get sucked in a lot but then, suddenly, it's clearly noticed that it's all just on auto-pilot. Like you said "the I thoughts will continue" but now they're being seen as no I having them. This was experienced a couple of weeks ago in spots - now it's a lot clearer. It seems like there's a "getting used to it" happening - kind of a learning curve. Actually, it's pleasant (sensation coming from somewhere.) The "wallet keeps getting opened." Does that make sense?

Be Well,

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Good!

And can you find an experiencer separate from the experience?

x

[charlieaa]

1400 PDT Thurs, Aug 8, 2013
S,
Before and after your post, I had lain down, listened to music, felt the (soft) bed, etc., etc. Have always had a problem with this kind of question. Not now. The question came up: "Is there a little charlie in there hearing the music?" Of course not! After looking for a short while, it is seen that the body/mind just reacts to its environment by experiencing. There IS experience. Then it is further seen that "body/mind" is just a name, and might be experience itself. More looking.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Great stuff Charlie

It sounds like the illusion is dropping away :-) Big smile overhere.

Now dig a bit deeper.

Is it the body that experiences or is the body experienced?

xx

[charlieaa]

Fri, Aug 9, 2013 0800 PDT
Good afternoon Silvia,

I had written:

the body/mind just reacts to its environment by experiencing. There IS experience. Then it is further seen that "body/mind" is just a name, and might be experience itself. More looking.

Is it the body that experiences or is the body experienced?

It now looks like the body doesn't experience - it is experienced. There is just experiencing. Can't find an experiencer although there's still an urge to believe there is - the returning "I thought?" All this raises the question of what IS experiencing? So far the best I can see is that it is simply a "knowing." The same with the idea that thoughts are things. Now looks like there is just thinking and the knowing that thinking is happening.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Charlie

Can't find an experiencer although there's still an urge to believe there is - the returning "I thought?"

Don't ask me! hehe. Look at this urge. What do you see? Is it a feeling or emotion? Is it a thought? Is it both?

All this raises the question of what IS experiencing? So far the best I can see is that it is simply a "knowing." The same with the idea that thoughts are things.

Not sure what you mean by the idea that thoughts are things. Could you explain?

Now looks like there is just thinking and the knowing that thinking is happening.

Is knowing separate from the known?
Is there a thing called experience overhere and a thing called the experienced overthere? or is there just experiencing? Don't guess! Answer only from what you see in direct experience.

Then it is further seen that "body/mind" is just a name, and might be experience itself.

What happens when you drop those labels? What happens when you drop all labels? Even awareness or knowing or experience?

Much love x

[charlieaa]

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:40 PDT
Good evening Silvia,

Lots of looking has been done and is continuing re your last post.

This morning here my keyboard driver went down. I'm at a neighbor's computer for just a few minutes. I can receive posts on my computer but can't type anything. My UCLA computer pal is working on it right now. But it may be until after Monday - to the shop I fear - until I'm up and running again. so, that's why the delay.

An over-riding moment of seeing was that "you are that aliveness" IS experience. That's all "I" am - just experience without any words to describe it. Experience and what is experienced are the same. I really want to write you about this but am constrained by circukstances right now.

Please write - I can get it but can't respond. If it goes in the shop, it'll be until Tues or so until I can write again.

Gotta go.

charlie

[charlieaa]

Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:37 PDT

Hi again Silvia,

"My guru" fixed it!

Right now, I'm writing you - It'll be less than an hour.

c

[charlieaa]

Sat Aug 10, 2013 14:10 PDT

Hi again Silvia,

re: "Thoughts are things."

Not sure what you mean by the idea that thoughts are things. Could you explain?

A thought about thoughts. I heard/read it somewhere and it "felt" right - but I didn't ever really investigate it. Now it seems irrelevant - like content of another thought that may or may not be true.


Can't find an experiencer although there's still an urge to believe there is - the returning "I thought?"

Don't ask me! hehe. Look at this urge. What do you see? Is it a feeling or emotion? Is it a thought? Is it both?

It's both.

This brings up (what may be for me) a recurring "problem" with language. I have often heard, and you wrote (on 8-7):

Let's try again. Are you the thinker of the thoughts?

NO

Close your eyes. That happening right there. That feeling of being alive, or energy and whatever is arising in that moment. That's YOU. . .

The "URGE" to believe there's an "experiencer" so far, just happens as the mind tries to attach experiencing to that "YOU," as kind of a reified experiencer. **More below.

THEN, from the word "effortlessly," again is seen that the body/mind are just doing their things and there is just experiencing of it all.

Then you ask:

Now looks like there is just thinking and the knowing that thinking is happening.

Is knowing separate from the known? Is there a thing called experience overhere and a thing called the experienced overthere? or is there just experiencing? Don't guess! Answer only from what you see in direct experience.

So, I rephrase the question in context of thinking: "Is knowing of thinking the same as thinking?" NOT a semantic puzzle, but really?? Is thinking actually the same experience as knowing? I CAN see a yes. But, right now there's confidence lacking that it's really being seen. "Don't guess!" Aside from thinking, experience of 5 sensations and emotions are not seen as here or there. BUT, when I open my eyes and see the chair across the room, I'm back to "chair over there" and experience of seeing the chair over here.

Then the "biggie" :

What happens when you drop those labels? What happens when you drop all labels? Even awareness or knowing or experience?

**First, what happens can't be described to another without labels. Right? But, here goes, anyway. All that's left is just "is-ing", "life-ing." That YOU IS experience itself - or just IS.

We're not "feeling, sensing" here. Just looking in the wallet. BUT, the view comes and goes. Another story?

I re-read all this and see that there are inconsistencies. Not going to try to fix it - it's pretty much spontaneous. And DIDN'T do any research! Silvia will use it to guide even further. Good! But for now, I need a break.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

So this urge is an emotion followed by a thought. What is the emotion? What is the thought?

So, I rephrase the question in context of thinking: "Is knowing of thinking the same as thinking?"

Why do you have to re-phrase the question? Just look at direct experience and answer the question from what you see.

BUT, when I open my eyes and see the chair across the room, I'm back to "chair over there" and experience of seeing the chair over here.

A chair overthere is a thought. What do you see?

I re-read all this and see that there are inconsistencies. Not going to try to fix it - it's pretty much spontaneous. And DIDN'T do any research! Silvia will use it to guide even further.

If by spontaneous you mean you are writing the first thought that crosses your mind without bothering to check with direct experience whether is true or not, then we are going to have some trouble you and. It's not my job to sort that out, it's yours.

Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Monday, Aug 12, 2013 09:50 PDT
Silvia,

If by spontaneous you mean you are writing the first thought that crosses your mind without bothering to check with direct experience whether is true or not, then we are going to have some trouble you and.

I am spending no less than three hours a day actively looking, writing and hanging on your every word. Rigorously honest attempts are constantly being made to see. By "spontaneously" I meant that I did not seek answers in other sources. After looking/inquiring then writing and then around again and again, I post - usually takes an hour just to do this. At the end of my post some answers may not jibe with each other. That's all I meant. But each is answered with as much honest effort I can muster at the time. It seems that to go back and tidy it all up is 1) not honest, 2) unproductive, 3) impossible, actually. It'll never be "right" and it'll take a full day to even try.

But, most important is there's no "I" doing any of it. There's just this body/mind reacting to Silvia's questions often with considerable "unpleasant sensations"/suffering. OK. Onwards, Further.

Why do you have to re-phrase the question? Just look at direct experience and answer the question from what you see.

Because my original observation was made in the context of thinking/knowing. I wanted to revisit that context to see what I was experiencing/seeing at that time. To me, your important question :

is knowing separate from the known? Is there a thing called experience overhere and a thing called the experienced overthere? or is there just experiencing? Don't guess! Answer only from what you see in direct experience.

has been answered/seen for all except the sight perception. The chair: You ask

A chair overthere is a thought. What do you see?

Excellent! First, I see colors/shapes. But those are also just thoughts. There is just seeing. And any sense of "over there" vanishes and with it a sense of being an experiencer.***

So this urge is an emotion followed by a thought. What is the emotion? What is the thought?

I don't know anymore! "Urge" was just a word used in an (obviously) vain attempt to convey an experienced/felt habitual mind-generated movement to create an experiencer. ***

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Good to know :-). Just checking. Because one second a thought will say one thing, and the next another thought will assert the exact opposite, and of course, all of it is spontaneous.
I think it's something that can't be emphasised enough.

I too spend quite a lot of time reading your answers, pondering on them, checking my own experience, and trying to come out with the best angle of enquiry. :-)

But, most important is there's no "I" doing any of it. There's just this body/mind reacting to Silvia's questions often with considerable "unpleasant sensations"/suffering.

Where is this sufferer Charlie? What do you find when you look for the sufferer?

I don't know anymore! "Urge" was just a word used in an (obviously) vain attempt to convey an experienced/felt habitual mind-generated movement to create an experiencer. ***

So is it seen, clearly now, from experience, that I is just a thought? Are there any doubts left? And if so, what form do they take? Is there a relaxing into experience? Is the seeking dropping away?

Much love x

[charlieaa]

Monday, Aug 12, 2013 19:45 PDT

Hello Silvia,
Good morning, Tuesday.

But, most important is there's no "I" doing any of it. There's just this body/mind reacting to Silvia's questions often with considerable "unpleasant sensations"/suffering.

Where is this sufferer Charlie? What do you find when you look for the sufferer?

First, no sufferER - what I find when I look is just unpleasant sensations (we sometimes call suffering.) And even "unpleasant sensations" are words too - to be experienced - not avoided. Second, I actually added "suffering" with some tongue in cheek. Shouldn't have done that. Sorry.

So is it seen, clearly now, from experience, that I is just a thought?

YES.

Are there any doubts left? And if so, what form do they take?

At the times when it is seen, there are no doubts. It's clear. [See below.***]

Is there a relaxing into experience?

YES!! ***:Now and then, ongoing during the day (and some dreams too, I think,) seeing arises that "all this going on" is just on auto-pilot - the world is just happening in accordance with causes and conditions which there's no "I" that has anything to do with controlling it. And there is just experience of it happening. Nobody's home. Your word "relaxing" nicely does describe those moments of such seeing.

Is the seeking dropping away?

The way "relaxing into experience" is continuing, yes. But as I write right now, the answer to that question seems to be a bit subjective. While the seeing of the I thought arising and passing, and the relaxing ongoing, there still arises the thought: "when does the good stuff happen?" I know that it's just a thought but it IS a form of seeking and needs to be included to answer your question with full disclosure, I think. Lately, when that thought comes up with the attendant feeling of lack/wanting, it is looked at and seen as just a thought. AND "There is no I that has any control" is remembered and "Whatever happens, happens."

I'm writing tonight (here) because tomorrow early I've been invited to the coast birdwatching the rocky shores of the Pacific. Right now, as I write, there is a sense of anticipation to get out into nature with others and watch the show and relax into experience.

charlie