Still believes in Santa - experienced guide needed!

[Jack'n'theBox]

Hi Mark this is sounding good. I'm happy for you. Let's see how things settle in the next day or so then there are some final questions I can ask you and we can invite other guides to look at the conversation and raise any queries before passing on the details of the after care groups (if you care to join them). In the meantime, can you tell me more how it feels to see this? Is there a difference in your felt experience from before you started this converesation and now?

[mssmith1]

Hi Mark,

Yes, there is a difference, but it is quite subtle. The main difference is I think that the narrator is much quieter, and the endless thought stories centred about the self (which were usually future orientated) appear to be absent. Yesterday was very different - the knowing seemed to build from the dog walk I mentioned, through the evening, to the point at which I sat with it late into the night. There was something of a continuation of that knowing on awakening today, but very quickly it faded, and life went on as usual, except for the difference I mentioned at the start of this post.

It feels like I need to let things settle as you suggest, and as always I appreciate your help.

Thanks

Mark

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK Mark just give me a quick update for the next day or so on how things are unfolding for you and we'll take it from there.

[mssmith1]

Hi Mark,

Just a very quick post, as it's quite difficult to know what to write. It's almost as if mind hasn't noticed a change. Experience remains subtly different - many fewer "I" thoughts, and also less irritation seems to arise. The thought that there is a need to cling on to the heightened sense of awareness at the weekend seems to be fading. It doesn't feel like there is anything more to do, yet there is also a thought that it is not yet complete.

I'll post more as the week progresses.

Best

Mark

[Jack'n'theBox]

Experience remains subtly different - many fewer "I" thoughts, and also less irritation seems to arise. The thought that there is a need to cling on to the heightened sense of awareness at the weekend seems to be fading. It doesn't feel like there is anything more to do, yet there is also a thought that it is not yet complete.

Mark

Hi Mark, can you think of any specific examples of how your behaviour has changed since we started this conversation or is everything much the same? Also can you say more about what it is that isn't complete? Remember our discussion about expectations? What is it that needs completing? Why do you think it needs to be complete? How would you go about completing it? It's worth looking at this expectation.

[mssmith1]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the post. In terms of behaviour, I would say I am slightly quieter. I find awareness resting in body sensations more often, perhaps because "me thoughts" seem largely absent. There have been a couple of marginal conflict situations in which my reactions were different to how they would have been before this process. The first, the behaviour that would previously irritated me, actually led to a sort of light humour. This wasn't realised until after the event. The second, the conflict remained, but was experienced much more as a tightening in the abdomen during and after the event. However, afterwards, there was little in the way of "churning" thoughts (and those that did arise were followed by the thought "it's just a thought story") and the event seemed to pass and be forgotten more quickly.

The sense of lack of completeness has passed, so it is difficult to investigate. The differences from before are subtle but remain. The vision sense perception is also becoming clearer - yesterday there was awareness of opening the eyes, and kind of seeing as a vast, moving display of "things", but that they were all experienced in a single place. Sort of the way sounds are all encompassing when you really listen to them. It's difficult to explain, but it's not a sense of "me" looking out at the world.

Best

Mark

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK, great Mark. Looks like things are settling down -- why don't you go ahead and answer the final questions. Take your time. Answer from direct experience not theorising. Then we'll see if other guides have any further questions for you or issues they would like us to explore a bit more:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add

[mssmith1]

Hi Mark

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, all that can be experienced is what I call body sensation, sense perception and thought stories. They all just arise in awareness. The main sense perceptions I experience and visual and sounds. Both appear unlimited. The thought stories of I are just thoughts. Previously my experience was flooded by future stories of I. These have stopped, because of a knowing of the lack of self. There never was a self, just a belief that there was, which was ultimately just a thought that crumbles under investigation.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

To me, the separate self is a tangle of interconnected thoughts that form around a common storyline. They take experience and seem to crystallise around a fictional narrative, which is in turn anchored in the body. As to when it starts, I have no idea. You could guess it's in childhood, but I have nothing I can point to to prove that's the case. The longer the story runs, the thicker the tangle becomes and the more familiar the thoughts become. I suspect, but don't know, that this is because of human neurology, with familiar thought pathways becoming established.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The surprising thing is that while the experience of realisation was quite intense, the subsequent experience is only subtly different. It's as if the mind has somehow removed the concept of "I", yet doesn't want to acknowledge it. Almost like it made a mistake it was embarrassed about. Thoughts about the future self are simply absent. Experience in the present seems more balanced across the three types of experiences (body sensations, sense perceptions and thought stories), whereas before they much more focussed on thought stories, with sense perceptions supporting and forming part of the thought stories, and body sensations being largely ignored.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The Spira body meditation definitely played a big part in it. I'm not sure what the last push was, but the realisation came while walking the dogs, alone. There was just a constant arising of the thought "all there is is body sensation, sense perception and though" for about 30 minutes, and awareness seemed to shift between those categories as the words arose. That evening felt very different, and sitting for an hour or so just before midnight had a depth and silence to it that had not been experienced by it.

The next day didn't seem much different, and it took a while to notice that the future "I" thoughts had stopped. Since there has been a gradual noticing of the subtle differences, and a relaxing of the wanting to return to the experience of the Saturday night, which is just a thought.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

No. Decisions are made. The body mind responds in the appropriate way at the right time. When it is thirsty, the body mind will go and get a drink. When it needs to go to the toilet, it will get up and go to the toilet. This is experienced all the time. Intention is just a thought. Choice is like a decision - it is just made at the right time. There is no right or wrong - that's just thought.

I used to think that all a person could control in life was their thoughts and response to outside events in life - everything else was outside of their control. This idea does not hold up to investigation because thoughts can't be controlled - that's just an illusion, part of the "me" thought story. Take away that part, plus the fact that the body can be observed acting without any "control" and there is nothing left to control.

6) Anything to add

Strangely enough no. I really appreciate your help with this, and would like to keep in touch outside of the board, so please message me if you'd like to (but no problem if not).

Thanks

Mark

[Jack'n'theBox]

Great Mark. I'll invite some other guides to review our conversation and get back to you with any queries. We have some 'after care' groups where you can keep in contact with me and make connections with other folk and discuss any further issues -- these require a facebook account so if you haven't got one you might want to open one -- it doesn't have to be in your real name.