Looking for a guide

[otterrivers]

you don't know what does exist? well what does exist mean? in direct experience, exist only means what is now. the 5 senses... thinking.. feeling.. what else is there?

yes doesn't this freedom feel lovely when noticed? there is no you or them. even the unpleasant stuff... what is it happening to? what choice do you have of how to feel? you may see this and feel free, or not. "who" could make the choice? so am I saying you can just take your hands off of the steering wheel ?
Yes! yes I am saying that. including "trying" to attain freedom from story. The flow is running the show. isn't it so? (oh! good rhyme!)

when I addressed meaning, I was speaking about your statement:

a mixture of the ‘I’ness and something else that is also part of this vast expanse of what isn’t ‘me’. So – there is something there that feels like the real ‘me’

see how that is extrapolating a meaning? like "this is this way, so that is that way"
I am not telling you this isn't so, but are mind's conclusions the truth?

[otterrivers]

[quote] This story of connection and oneness is a much more pleasant story than the story of separation….[quote]

YES! I can see how this may be so. a pleasing story is much more enjoyable! and this story may even seem truer than a story of separation. But is any story true? I would not discourage this better-feeling story. I am encouraged that you see it as a story. with the ability to see a mental story for what it is, you may see clearly what is before/beyond story. when all story drops, what is still there? notice that "being/existing" that is before any thought. follow it. is it different from anything? story may arise again, but what is it written on? see what I am saying? that which is, already is before story and including story.

[Choki]

The five senses….well, I guess contact occurs in some form between something and what we call our five senses – which may just be the movement of energy through time…

‘Unpleasant’ stuff is only unpleasant because ‘I’ label it so – if ‘I’ step aside, it just is, the whole play of existence, wonderful in its completeness. But suffering exists when ‘I’ feel hurt by being blamed by another (or when I blame another and don’t accept the situation for how it is) and duality arises.

Well, my mind’s conclusions are something along the lines of ‘if the “I” is an illusion, therefore there is something that isn’t an illusion’. So, by process of elimination, there is boundless joy. And I wonder if this is what sages would refer to as the Self, or the universal life principal. But, yes, I agree, it could be just another nice story.

I notice some resistance right now, I’m looking at it and seeing it’s a power struggle, with the story of me just not being good enough coming up again, and seeming to be confirmed. It would be ok if only I didn’t have to explain myself! Everything would be fine if only there weren’t any words! Words aren’t the truth itself, the truth seems to be wordless…

[otterrivers]

labeling happens. without believing that there is a recipient of experience, it is just what it is: a series of things happening.

there's no need to explain yourself, it's just that we can only communicate here with typed words,
just look without expectation or desire and tell me, is there a self or not? do you see this or is it just seen? do you notice self is not there or is noticing doing the noticing? the rest is all just talking and thinking about what this seeing may "mean". let's keep it very simple.

"just look" sounds overly simple maybe, but it is the best, truest advice. look without a filter. seeing happen in 1 second. it doesn't take a special "LOOKING", you just look.

and if after this thoughts about it arise, you don't have to follow them or put importance in them as in "trying to figure it out". and if that happens, that is fine too no need to get rid of a self that was never there.
and as for this conditioning of self=referencing thought, just watch it. there's no need (or possibility) of doing anything about it. just watch how this conditioned mode of living fades. under scrutiny/noticing, you may see it has a tendency to change on it's own. nothing goes away, habits just change.

it may not change in the instant of seeing, but water does not begin to boil the moment you put it on the hot stove either. but if you leave it there, it will be bubbling soon enough.

[Choki]

Just having a break for a little while, letting things settle, seeing what happens....

[otterrivers]

ok. watch life. what is watching? is anything watching or is watching watching?

just look. leave the pot on the stove and let the water cook. :)
Let me know when you are ready to continue.

[Choki]

Having had a break, freedom from questions, just experiencing what arises, how an apparent self seems to get caught up in things, running away from what is - in search of a 'better place' that is already right here right now, present in every moment. But the awareness of this is only possible if I don't turn away. And who am I? What am I? The not turning away is the merging with what is, and then 'I' disappear.

[otterrivers]

well it's nice to see you here again.

when there is no Choki, what is left?

[Choki]

Hi - sorry - somehow forgot that to view my posts I'd have to log on.... how could I forget that? this makes me laugh....

When there is no Choki, what is left? I could spend ages trying to think this one through, and I think I often have done, and not come up with any answer, only laughter.

And it's nice to see you again too....

[otterrivers]

I am sorry. it happened to me finally! I typed up a reply last night then the internet cut out and it was erased. i'll try again. sorry for the wait.

[otterrivers]

have another look. i'm not just nit-picking, it's a sincere question.

at this moment is there laughter?
when someone says something you don't like and you feel tight and defensive, there is still no choki, so what remains?

I won't stress this point too much. we can move on. but look over the next day or so. watch the reactions of the body-mind to life's stimuli. with no choki in ANY of it, what is left?

[Choki]

at this moment there is stillness... but I've been looking, the last couple of days, having thought that if you are free then you don't react to things but.... there is still reaction, so it feels like I'm not free - but at the same time, there's an awareness of the reaction, an awareness of how the body feels and the mind, and the awareness of it changes it, and then there's a question - is this 'mine' or is it just the energy happening between me and another person - with no identification, just awareness of something like different flavours of experience? I don't have to 'own' it or change it or feel that there's something that needs fixing, it just is, and I can observe it with curiosity rather than rejecting it. With no me in any of it, what is left is everything, the whole world, just as it is.

[otterrivers]

I don't have to 'own' it or change it or feel that there's something that needs fixing, it just is, and I can observe it with curiosity rather than rejecting it.

yes. and that includes a feeling that there is something to fix, if that is what is experienced now. :) it's ALL ok.

and yes. good. you see that reaction is just reaction. are you supposed to become dead? if your loved one dies, should you not mourn? if a snake falls on you from a tree, should you not be startled? if you do a very good job, should you not feel satisfaction? if you put your hand on a hot stove, should you cease the instant reaction of pulling your hand away?

There is an intelligence at work that is much MUCH greater than thought. in fact thinking can really get in it's way. you can flow with that river gracefully or struggle against it and get thrashed around pretty badly.
but that is my advice, not L.U. Guidance.

So whether there is reaction and you enjoy it, or there is reaction and you think it should be different, where is there any chooser to choose which way to react to the reactions?
we can see that there is choice which, in our language, implies a chooser, but does that mean it is true?

[otterrivers]

is it just the energy happening between me and another person ?

let's have another look at "others"
maybe you don't need to be convinced that there are no others, but let's go down this path anyway. you may still find value in this. and if it is something you already have done, it definitely won't hurt to do it again. :)

where is there an-Other in direct experience?
by direct experience, I mean what is sensed now. since this is all you can REALLY know.
take a moment and sense everything that is now...............

really do this for a moment...

feeling, seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. try to witness a distinction between any of these... or is sensation simply happening?

also, can you find any point of separation (outside of imagination) between sense-er, sense, and 'what is sensed'?

let's focus on "seeing".
This works with 'others' as well, but let's work on something more immediate for now.
look at this screen... these words. what is it?
where does seeing happen? (....direct experience now, not what anyone else has told you.)

is there a "that which sees" or is there just the seeing?
is the awareness of what is seen separate from what is seen?
is there a "that which is seen" or is there just seeing?

it's fine to understand there is not a self or others, but here is a way to really KNOW it and feel it.
Just like being mentally convinced that the earth is round is not the same as flying into space and seeing for yourself. (IF this is true! hahaha. you have to really let go of ALL preconceptions and look again, no matter how ridiculous it may seem)
this is deep water indeed. there's nowhere for the feet to touch ground.
take some time with this. really relax into it, and tell me what you find.

[otterrivers]

and, how funny. I just came across this. I've heard it before but never read the whole passage. just thought it might be worth a quick view since it is exactly what i'm pointing to above. It's from a Buddhist text, I believe.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)