The Gate

Hi Deejay,

I've slightly done my head in with trying to see the thoughts. [...] Again this has somewhat done my head in.

OK - relax! No hammer or tongs required, really!

:-)

A different approach required all round, let's try a different tack

But I just cannot see 'thoughts claiming every aspect of experience'. A lot of doubting thoughts have arisen around this: I'm missing something, 'my' awareness isn't refined enough to see this.

Hey, no, it's just how different folk experience things - if it doesn't "click" then just drop it, straining is unlikely to help.

But today there hasn't been any point where, if I enquired, I couldn't see after a while that there is no self. There were many times when I noticed thoughts that assumed 'I', and was able to 'pop' them through enquiring.

OK, good stuff.

Let's come back to expectations again - a full circle, you could say, as this is normally where the enquiry starts...

It is completely normal, even having seen through the illusion, for 'selfing' to return at times. A lifetime's habits don't drop away immediately. 'Seeing' is not constant - how could it be, since there is no constant element in experience? I'm sure you've heard that a dozen times by now.

This is important because it is possible to get kinda distracted by the return of 'selfing', for example distracted by doubting thoughts "hey, I can't have seen, I just had an 'I' thought!" ... which is itself another 'I' thought, and round and round we go! Or distracted by aversion - "if there is aversion, there must be 'I' belief! Where is it?".

If it is fully known that there no separate 'I' in reality, then even 'selfing' is recognised as empty.

So right now, don't try to destroy anything - not even 'I' belief - just notice what is really going on in direct experience. So let's come right back to the present moment and check where we're up to:

so RIGHT NOW, sitting here, is 'I' seeing, or is there just seeing?
Is 'I' hearing, or is there just hearing?
Is 'I' thinking, or are thoughts just arising?

What, then, in direct experience, is 'I'?

x
Perry

Hi Perry,
Thanks for all that stuff about expectations. There's been a lot of getting distracted and distressed by doubting thoughts.

so RIGHT NOW, sitting here, is 'I' seeing, or is there just seeing?
Is 'I' hearing, or is there just hearing?
Is 'I' thinking, or are thoughts just arising?

What, then, in direct experience, is 'I'?

Following these questions, another cycle of doubt then clarity then doubt today.
Tried to reply but... want more time to be 100% sure of what I write.

Best,
Deejay x

OK, thanks for the update,

in your own time!

Perry

Dear Perry,
This morning, there was a big avalanche of resistance… painful states of various kinds. I kept on enquiring, but new stuff kept arising. At a certain point it felt super-clear that all this suffering was a result of thoughts, just thoughts.

…distracted by aversion - "if there is aversion, there must be 'I' belief! Where is it?"

Ok, realise that it's more that where there is aversion, there is a habit of self. It is evidence not of a belief in self but of a habit of self.

so RIGHT NOW, sitting here, is 'I' seeing, or is there just seeing?

There is just seeing. There is no 'I' seeing.
In some moments there is also a sense of a centre to experience - sensations of holding on in certain places in the body - and awareness flits between seeing and that centre, 'I'. Looking, I can see there is nothing there in that centre, just changing sensations in the body and an idea that this is 'I', a habit of holding on to this as 'I'. When I see that, the sensations remain and also sensations of quesiness/nausea arise, and they strengthen the sense of a centre. When I carry on looking the sense of a centre shifts down to another place in the body, and that lessens the illusion of a centre.

Is 'I' hearing, or is there just hearing?

There is just hearing. Again awareness flits between just hearing and sensations in the body which feel like a centre - different sensations, this time just the queasiness plus adrenaline and mild palpitations. When I keep looking at those sensations eventually they lessen and awareness is more just with the hearing.

Is 'I' thinking, or are thoughts just arising?

(Looking, I notice tension in the forehead, straining. A sense of an 'I' needing to make an effort for awareness to happen).

There is no 'I' thinking… thoughts are just arising. I notice guilty thoughts arising about some of the thoughts. When I notice that, I can see the guilt is just arising too.

What, then, in direct experience, is 'I'?

There is no actual 'I' in direct experience.

Best,
Deejay x

Hi Deejay,

I hope you're well ... I'm still impressed that you can keep up this enquiry with everything else going on in your life at the moment.

So, some great work with direct experience in your last post - you are in a very good place with this right now. You have been working in the way the Buddha meant when he said:

you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.'

It would probably be enough just to say - carry on!

... But here are some more specific comments and questions...

I can see there is nothing there in that centre, just changing sensations in the body and an idea that this is 'I', a habit of holding on to this as 'I'.

Well observed - the sense of 'centre' is worth really looking at closely.

But what about the 'habit of holding' - is this found in direct experience? Is anything really holding anything?

Is a habit something directly experienced in the present moment? Or is 'habit' an idea, based on remembering similar experience in the past? When you observe this sense of centre, what is the present-moment experience that you have labelled 'habit of holding''?

(Don't do your head in trying to follow up these, or any other questions - if the questions do not open up with some gentle questioning awareness, then just say 'dunno!' and move on)

When I see that, the sensations remain and also sensations of quesiness/nausea arise, and they strengthen the sense of a centre.

not pleasant, but more grist to the mill - just notice the sensations and thoughts arising, it is all just experience!

(Looking, I notice tension in the forehead, straining. A sense of an 'I' needing to make an effort for awareness to happen).

Well spotted ... of course, in reality awareness is always effortlessly present, no strain required!

Do 'you' make this strain happen on purpose, or does it arise, as it were, selflessly?

Once noticed, is this "sense of an 'I' needing to make an effort" believed, or is it obviously just another thought pattern?

There is no actual 'I' in direct experience.

OK, excellent!

So if 'I' cannot be found in direct experience, what is it'?

x
Perry

Dear Perry,
Gosh thanks for the encouragement and hanging on in there with me ... have been lots of thoughts judging 'how "I'm" doing' and assuming there must be as much exasperation your end as mine!!!
More soon,
Deejay x

Hi,

There's no hurry as far as I'm concerned, and I don't feel we're stuck, so if you're still game, I am!

What's going on with the exasperation, though? There must be expectations lurking under there - expectations are really important, they can be like a side-wind constantly blowing the process off-course...

x
Perry

Hi Perry,

But what about the 'habit of holding' - is this found in direct experience? Is anything really holding anything?

This is GOOD… revealed there was some sense of something holding on… There is no habit in direct experience, and nothing holding, nothing to hold on to, just muscles tensed, and the familiarity of that tension; or maybe the familiarity is in the attributing 'I' to those kinds of sensations.

(Don't do your head in trying to follow up these, or any other questions - if the questions do not open up with some gentle questioning awareness, then just say 'dunno!' and move on)

Great, thanks.

Do 'you' make this strain happen on purpose, or does it arise, as it were, selflessly?

It just arises.

Once noticed, is this "sense of an 'I' needing to make an effort" believed, or is it obviously just another thought pattern?

It is just a thought pattern or body habit pattern. I still come up against this thing that much of what I notice in the self-sense does not feel like what I would call 'thought', but then 'thought' is just a label that covers many things, maybe different things for different people. I certainly noticing 'labelling' and 'claiming' some of the time, but not always.

So if 'I' cannot be found in direct experience, what is it'?
It's an idea which has become habitual, a projection, a construction built out of body sensations and thoughts.

What's going on with the exasperation, though? There must be expectations lurking under there - expectations are really important, they can be like a side-wind constantly blowing the process off-course...

Yes, that metaphor resonates.
Things have shifted though. Did a deep deep relaxation and enquired. The insight arose that reality is mysterious and thoughts about it are just like froth on the ocean… They bear little connection to reality, they just arise out of previous, limited experience.

Saw that thoughts can't 'do' anything and sensations of tension in the body that feel like 'I' can't do anything either, can't think or take action, so how can they be 'I'.

Had a huge cry and felt loads of compassion for all the suffering arising out of this delusion of 'I'. Still have that sense that the heart needs to be in the picture for clarity to come.

Best,
Deejay x

Hi Deejay,

I still come up against this thing that much of what I notice in the self-sense does not feel like what I would call 'thought', but then 'thought' is just a label that covers many things, maybe different things for different people.

Yes, good point, I am using it pretty widely.

First there is seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and feeling (inner feeling and outer feeling) ... the five senses, concrete direct experience.

Then everything else, all mental activity I call 'thought' - not just the most obvious 'verbal' thoughts, but all the subtle mental processes of labelling, remembering, imagining, anticipating, recognising, judging, reasoning, mine-making etc etc... all thought!

I certainly noticing 'labelling' and 'claiming' some of the time, but not always.

Don't worry about being able to notice "all the time" ... let's stick to right now.

So right now, you have discovered that:
seeing happens, yet there is no "I" making seeing happen;
hearing happens, yet there is no "I" making hearing happen;
feeling, tasting, smelling - these happen, there is no "I" making them happen...

There is no "I" to be found in direct sense experience, so whatever "I" is, it must be just thought (in the widest sense of thought). As you say:

It's an idea which has become habitual, a projection, a construction built out of body sensations and thoughts.

Yes, very good!

Is this idea, this construction, clearly present right now? Is it known, even as it is present, that it is just a construction, not a real, separate self-entity?

thoughts can't 'do' anything and sensations of tension in the body that feel like 'I' can't do anything either, can't think or take action, so how can they be 'I'.

.... yes, yes yes!

Had a huge cry and felt loads of compassion for all the suffering arising out of this delusion of 'I'. Still have that sense that the heart needs to be in the picture for clarity to come.

Clarity seems to be coming thick and fast!

You're right about bringing your heart into the picture - do relax into your heart and body, this is not about "doing your head in", but exploring direct experience, where the heart knows no separation, and "I" is seen for what it is, a character in a foolish fantasy....

x
Perry

Hi Perry,

all mental activity I call 'thought' - not just the most obvious 'verbal' thoughts, but all the subtle mental processes of labelling, remembering, imagining, anticipating, recognising, judging, reasoning, mine-making etc etc... all thought!

Ok… interesting. I guess even volitions would fit in the same category?

Walking in the woods, I was stopped in my tracks by a realisation that was complete but hard to articulate now, but included what you wrote earlier about expectations:

'Seeing' is not constant - how could it be, since there is no constant element in experience?

and also included what Mad Biker wrote: The wish for a final “done” is; surprise, surprise a story of the final carrot to be reached, a reason for the fictional “I” to try to get “somewhere.” Everything is constantly changing, moving, and interacting. There is no “done” in the real world. If you want to be at home, be at home in the flow.

Could see that I've been waiting for some realisation that is unified, consistent, unchanging… just precisely what we are trying to see does not exist. This had a lightening and freeing effect…. at the time!!! :-)

After this realisation I could also see another subtle level of aversion to the self-sense that maybe gets in the way of just seeing it.
I remembered your rainbow metaphor: the illusion doesn't disappear when you realise it's an illusion.
I'm interested in that distinction you made a while back between no longer believing the illusion, and actually being able to 'pop' the illusion in the moment. Could you say anything more about that?

Is this idea, this construction, clearly present right now?

It is present right now, with some degree of clarity.

Is it known, even as it is present, that it is just a construction, not a real, separate self-entity?

No. Not fully, not in my gut. Too tired to be doing this really, will look more tomorrow.
It's hard because it feels as if looking at it changes it… it's almost as if the looking at it solidifies it.

More tomorrow!
x Deejay

Hi Perry,

Is this idea, this construction, clearly present right now?

Yes. There is some physical discomfort which I am somehow calling 'mine'. But it is not clear to me how I know that I am calling it mine. There is tension in the body, in the jaw, and around the area of physical discomfort - a holding on. It feels as if something is being held on to - or something is holding on.

Now, looking around me - there is the old familiar sense of an 'I' centre looking out. There are no thoughts that i can discern, but just sensations in the body - tight jaw, the sense of 'someone' looking out from behind 'my' eyes.

Is it known, even as it is present, that it is just a construction, not a real, separate self-entity?

Not with enough clarity, and without looking barely at all, just now.

If I look: I see that there is nothing I can find which distinguishes the sensations of physical discomfort, which I am feeling as 'me', from other direct experience which I do not feel is me - things I can see around me, the sensations of floor under my feet, desk under my arms. Yet I am still feeling the sensations of discomfort as me, or feeling a 'me' in relation to them. There is a tensing up around those sensations which also feels like 'me' - it feels as if there is an 'I' doing that; though when I look I can see again again that there is nothing holding and nothing to hold to: holding is just arising.

Best,
Deejay x

Hi Deejay,

There is no “done” in the real world. If you want to be at home, be at home in the flow.

yes, very nicely put!

After this realisation I could also see another subtle level of aversion to the self-sense that maybe gets in the way of just seeing it.

Quite! For present purposes, it doesn't help to divide experience into "experience which should be happening" and "experience which should not be happening". I can't overstate how important this is for this process - it's good that you're now clear about this.

I'm interested in that distinction you made a while back between no longer believing the illusion, and actually being able to 'pop' the illusion in the moment. Could you say anything more about that?

It is a subject I'm pretty interested in, but I'd rather not be drawn right now, because it is (strictly speaking) a side track from our current enquiry ... it becomes more relevant once self-view has been very thoroughly and comprehensively seen through. I liken the whole process to bringing a runaway train to a halt - first you must disable the engine (see through self-view), and once that is done, you can apply the brakes (destroy asavas, pop illusions, deflate selfing, exhaust habits). However, if you try to apply the brakes before fully disabling the engine, it will just create potentially explosive tension, so it is perhaps best to ignore the brakes until the engine is definitely out of action! Besides, applying the brakes is not strictly necessary - the train will eventually grind to a halt once the engine is disabled, even without brakes.

Going back a bit:

So if 'I' cannot be found in direct experience, what is it'?

It's an idea which has become habitual, a projection, a construction built out of body sensations and thoughts.

Is this idea, this construction, clearly present right now?

It is present right now, with some degree of clarity.

Is it known, even as it is present, that it is just a construction, not a real, separate self-entity?

No. Not fully, not in my gut. Too tired to be doing this really, will look more tomorrow.
It's hard because it feels as if looking at it changes it… it's almost as if the looking at it solidifies it.

This is a good place to enquire - some more gentle, persistent looking/questioning would be worthwhile.

Here are some pointers - follow up what resonates, don't strain over anything that doesn't seem helpful:

The experiences are that 'I' points to - are these fixed or changing?

If 'I' is an idea, a label, a projection, is it a thought that you can witness arising and passing like any other thought?

You say looking at "it" solidifies "it" ... is there really a singular solidified "it"? What happens when attention returns to direct sense experience - is "it" still there, or is "it" only sustained by thought?

I realise I've not responded to your latest post, but I have taken it on board, I expect we'll get onto the themes there soon enough!

x
Perry

Hi Perry, thanks again again for support. Will explore more and report back probably after weekend.
When meditating/doing deep relaxation insights keep arising re conditionality and emptiness, so hoping this will all come together at some point... Certainly this morning it felt like it was translating into clearer seeing of the illusion of self. There was some clarity even amidst some strong mind states, mainly fear. More soon.
best,
Deejay

Hi Perry,
Ok, back to enquiry after big 5 0h birthday weekend.

Is this idea, this construction, clearly present right now?

Yes, it is present in this moment. There are sensations - tight jaw, tension in head - which feel like 'I'.

Is it known, even as it is present, that it is just a construction, not a real, separate self-entity?

In this moment, I can say it is known, but not with any blinding clarity. If I focus on the changing nature of the experience it helps.

You say looking at "it" solidifies "it" ... is there really a singular solidified "it"?

No.

What happens when attention returns to direct sense experience - is "it" still there, or is "it" only sustained by thought?

Ok, this is an area of confusion.
So: to try and untangle this I've been looking at perception/recognition (samjna) (which you include as thought?) in other aspects of experience. When I look at something new, I label it. When I look at it again, I don't keep having the same labelling thought again. I just recognise what I have already labelled as the same thing. So if I look at this laptop, I don't have a thought 'this is a laptop', I wordlessly recognise it as a laptop. When a new sensation arises, I label it. Eg 'my heart is beating'. Then it continues to beat, and - as far as I can currently see - I recognise it as the same thing, without repeating the thought. A familiar sensation of tensing my jaw arises, and I (falsely) recognise it as 'I', referring back to past thoughts when I've labelled it 'I'. I'm finding it hard to really see that perception/recognition process clearly; easier when there's a new experience being labelled.

It feels as if there are distinct 'I' thoughts: 'I'm tired' 'My eyes are sore' 'I'm not getting anywhere', and then much less distinct mental activity, where I 'recognise' something as 'I', perpetuating past deluded thoughts.

If 'I' is an idea, a label, a projection, is it a thought that you can witness arising and passing like any other thought?

When there are distinct 'I' thoughts (eg 'I am tired') I can witness them arising and passing. When there is just recognition of something already labelled, as described above, I can't see that perception/recognition arising and passing away.

All best,
Deejay x

Hi Perry,

Hmm. This morning sitting, enquiring… everything felt very clear.
Self sense seen and not believed in. Thoughts claiming the insight as 'mine' seen. Quietness, heart connection, compassion arising. Seeing consistently seems to have the flavour of quietness, and selfing a flavour that is agitated, inauthentic, plastic.

A semi-visual sense of a seamless whole of conditions, with some of those claimed as 'I', grasped onto as 'I'.

Clarity started to come when I was doing deep relaxation/body scan meditation, and there was holding on in one part of the body. Then I saw again that there is nothing there to hold on to, nothing holding on.

In the last couple of days something's changed, it seems, and the illusion of self has gradually become much more visible as illusion. Rather than being like wallpaper, a background sense that is so habitual it's hard to see, it's started to gradually emerge from the wallpaper and become somewhat more distinct. I can feel the sensations that I'm identifying as 'I', and the grasping on to them, and also know they are not "I". It's hard to say what has changed, as there's no sudden clarity around the labelling/recognition process. But if I describe the identification with sensations and other experience as 'grasping onto them as "me"', that fits my experience pretty well.

I've noticed that when there are strong emotions there's an avalanche of 'I' thoughts and sensations, and aversion to those sensations and thoughts, and the restlessness weaves the whole self-sense together into a tight fabric that is hard to see and hard to see through. Part of what is making it clear that the self-sense is not a self is that the sensations are changing: but when awareness is restlessly shifting from one object to the next (sensation, thought, sensation), it's hard to observe that the objects themselves are changing.

In the last week (?) or so, I've had moments where there's craving, and then the thought arises 'no "I" to want', and the wanting largely drops off.

There was resistance when the thought arose: 'If I really allow this insight, maybe I will lose x thing, because I'll no longer want it.' But then I realised it was just speculation, thoughts, I've no idea if this will happen and how it might be.

There's been a real sense of freedom sometimes today. But I've been through so many cycles of feeling really clear, and then doubt and confusion re-emerging, so… will see what happens next.

There have been thoughts of the kind: well if you've really had this insight, then how come… eg 'How come you were annoyed when you lost at table tennis!' !!! Think I can maybe pat that one on the head and let it run off.

Best,
Deejay x