Many thanks

[Lobster]

Does it? Are you absolutely certain there is an 'I' required? As you sit reading these words, can you find an 'I'? The hands type, letters appear on the screen, can you sense where this 'I' is located?

HI Andrew,

I appreciate that you are going to continue asking this until I 'realise' the truth that no location of I can be found, located or experienced independent of the components of attention.
So let us explore this elementary certainty. 'I' is not there. 'I' does not have independent being. There is no 'I'. Anyone with even a few years of meditation experience goes through and beyond this. It is not realisation or awakening, it is a self evidential experience. Who do you think experiences it? We could say no one, if so wished . . .

So increasing ‘pure awareness’ is not your ‘exit’ from the sense of ‘self’, this is not your obstacle. But the awareness you have cultivated is very useful in helping to highlight where attachment still exists.

My awareness will not exit, overcome obstacles or 'awaken'. The idea that there is an obstacle or gate is your awareness. Mine is to increase in pure awareness independent of games, non-arisings and 'awakenings', no matter the subtlety. You could call that 'my game' or attachment if so wished . . .

With silent awareness and questioning strong emotions may arise at times. Have you felt this and how have you dealt with it?

Where the emotion has no hinderance or potential of damage to others, I allow it to arise and dissipate. Where it arises outside of my awareness or capacity to deal with, then I am very much at its unfoldment. These strong emotional states I find are lessened by practices such as yoga and meditation.

Many thanks for your kind attention
lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

It is not realisation or awakening, it is a self evidential experience. Who do you think experiences it? We could say no one, if so wished . . .

The fact that you've stated the sense of 'I' is still there means that for you at this stage it is not 'self evidential experience' it is simply a thought. 'Knowing' as a thought that there is no 'self' and realising there is no 'self' are not the same thing.

However, if you have this 'thought' firmly in your head, are convinced of its reality, you are not so very far away, but awakening has not yet happened - you would know if it had.

My awareness will not exit, overcome obstacles or 'awaken'. The idea that there is an obstacle or gate is your awareness.

And so we come up again against your doubt and your frustration. You have stated previously that you believe awakening is possible, now you do not - which is it to be? I have already pointed out that we cannot and are not here to help with doubt - only you can let go enough to see, I can't do it for you.

Mine is to increase in pure awareness independent of games, non-arisings and 'awakenings', no matter the subtlety. You could call that 'my game' or attachment if so wished . . .

When you say, 'Mine is to increase in pure awareness independent of...' do you not see the attachment in that? How can that which does not exist be 'independent of' anything?

As for games - this is not a game, not unless you also consider Russian Roulette a game. But your judging mind is still holding the field here isn't it? Trying to discern your way to truth, unpack the puzzle, work it all out - good luck with that, it won't work. How do I know? Because all you're doing is moving in circles within the illusion. And yes it is a deadly game. You're lost within a labyrinth you don't even see. The poison arrow is still deeply lodged and you're trying to figure out the chemical composition of the arrow head.

Where the emotion has no hinderance or potential of damage to others, I allow it to arise and dissipate. Where it arises outside of my awareness or capacity to deal with, then I am very much at its unfoldment. These strong emotional states I find are lessened by practices such as yoga and meditation.

In general an excellent response but I'm unclear what you mean by 'Where it arises outside my awareness'. Do you mean where strong emotions arise and simply sweep you away. This happens from time to time, as you note meditation, yoga, mindfulness will help to lessen this over time.

Lobster, it's not that this awakening can't occur through self-enquiry, it can, that's what happened to me. Direct Pointing also works, unless you're so filled with doubt you believe everyone who has awakened through this process to be delusional.

I can see enough from your writings to see that there are so many thoughts from which you make an identity - the fact that somewhere else is the thought, 'The 'self' doesn't exist', is not enough at this stage for awakening for you, which is why it hasn't happened yet. But only you can decide how you go forward with this - either guided here by someone who has awakened or independently through your self enquiry. Trying to do both at the same time is like trying to ride two horses.

Reflect on this and let me know how you would like to proceed.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

'Knowing' as a thought that there is no 'self' and realising there is no 'self' are not the same thing.

Agreed.

And so we come up again against your doubt and your frustration. You have stated previously that you believe awakening is possible, now you do not - which is it to be?

The 'awakening' is in your terms a kensho, you can if you wish believe it is the end of the journey. I find it is a good beginning. Doubt and frustration are not part of my experience. I am not sure how you are arriving at this.

When you say, 'Mine is to increase in pure awareness independent of...' do you not see the attachment in that? How can that which does not exist be 'independent of' anything?

In a similar way to an experience that has no being but is, occurs. It is dependent on occurring, otherwise it does not.

As for games - this is not a game.

Then what are you playing at?

Lobster, it's not that this awakening can't occur through self-enquiry, it can, that's what happened to me. Direct Pointing also works, unless you're so filled with doubt you believe everyone who has awakened through this process to be delusional.

I know you are not delusional, I have no doubt. I also know without doubt that more awareness is possible, further insights are open. You doubt this?

Reflect on this and let me know how you would like to proceed.

Reflect on this and let me know how you would like to proceed.
I would like to proceed a little beyond the projections of doubt and frustration, which you are experiencing as arising. Not part of my experience.

Many thanks for your attention,
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

We all struggle with use of language from time to time. Please review your comment here to check to see that you have not contradicted yourself:

experience that has no being but is

In the sense that it is without essence and is an arising, agreed.

It is dependent on occurring, otherwise it does not.

Agreed. But you also said:

Mine is to increase in pure awareness independent of

Having pointed out as you have that all arisings are dependent, what is this awareness that is independent? Do you think that awareness is independent? Does it feel like it is separate? Is this awareness an ‘I’?

The 'awakening' is in your terms a kensho, you can if you wish believe it is the end of the journey. I find it is a good beginning.

I also know without doubt that more awareness is possible, further insights are open. You doubt this?

Can you point out where on this forum any of the guides has suggested awakening is the end? It most definitely is not.

I would like to proceed a little beyond the projections of doubt and frustration, which you are experiencing as arising. Not part of my experience.

Agreed, these are projections. I’m glad to hear they are unfounded. So let us look further. Let me take you back to this statement in which you say a sense of ‘I’ arises:

An example would be this interaction, which requires an 'I' and a need to be aware in and through such a subjective condition. Another example would be any interaction that causes or connects to a reflective resonance, what is sometimes referred to as 'an arising', conflicted emotion, attachment, clinging etc.

The word I’d really like you to focus on here is ‘requires’. What is the basis for your belief that an interaction requires an ‘I’? Look at this from the opposite side – What would this interaction be like if there was no ‘I’? How would it be different?

Please take the time to examine your beliefs and assumptions in the light of direct experience and report, not what you think, but only what you see. (Would it help if I explained why I say this?)

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

Hi Lobster,

Hi Andrew,

Having pointed out as you have that all arisings are dependent, what is this awareness that is independent?

There is no independent awareness. Paradoxically it can increase, not in being but in awareness of being/absence of being.

Do you think that awareness is independent?

No.

Does it feel like it is separate?

No.

Is this awareness an ‘I’?

No. I is an identification or clinging to sense, separation, it would me more correct to say 'awareness becomes more aware but not of I'.

An example would be this interaction, which requires an 'I' and a need to be aware in and through such a subjective condition. Another example would be any interaction that causes or connects to a reflective resonance, what is sometimes referred to as 'an arising', conflicted emotion, attachment, clinging etc.
-
The word I’d really like you to focus on here is ‘requires’. What is the basis for your belief that an interaction requires an ‘I’? Look at this from the opposite side – What would this interaction be like if there was no ‘I’? How would it be different?

It is no different.

Many thanks
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

These seem like a very good set of answers. So let's look at this again. You said:

An example would be this interaction, which requires an 'I'

Then I replied:

What would this interaction be like if there was no ‘I’? How would it be different?

Then you have said:

It is no different.

So if it is no different, why would an 'I' be required as you originally asserted?

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

[quote="Andrew White"]
Then I replied:
[quote]

Hi Andrew,

So you did.
So did I.
What is required for this process or these words or this interaction?
You are.
I am.
What you constantly ask is what is the nature, source, experience or if 'I' as a being is present. The answer can be stated in many ways, there is no I present. There is I present. As already stated I am not interested in the emptiness of 'I'.
Stop projecting a minor realization as of major import. What is at the heart of this interaction?

Many thanks for your kind attention
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

Thanks for your responses.

So you did.
So did I.
What is required for this process or these words or this interaction?
You are.
I am.

'You are' , 'I am' are assumptions - ones you need to challenge for yourself. Don't believe, just look.

What you constantly ask is what is the nature, source, experience or if 'I' as a being is present. The answer can be stated in many ways, there is no I present. There is I present.

Iam not asking what is the source. Iam asking you to ask, 'Is there a source?'

I am not interested in the emptiness of 'I'.

You are not required to be 'interested'. Emptiness is a thought.

When you enquire, when you actually go into direct experince and out of thought, please watch this movement very closely. Can you detect a movement going the other way? Is there a point at which this falling into direct experience is halted or held back? Look closely.

Now consider this question: Where is Lobster?

Do not react to it, do not reach for 'nowhere', this is a practiced answer. Look beyond this both externally and internally. If you can't make a mental or physical list with at least 12 things on it you're not really asking.

When you push for the internal answers let yourself go into this. Look for the movement or holding back described above. Where does the question stop for you?

Please keep this list in your mind once you have had time to consider it.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

'You are' , 'I am' are assumptions - ones you need to challenge for yourself. Don't believe, just look.

Hi Andrew,
What assumes belief, what assumes no looking has occurred? I don't believe what you are looking at is seen.

Iam not asking what is the source. Iam asking you to ask, 'Is there a source?'

Asked. Answered. No source. Anything unclear?

You are not required to be 'interested'. Emptiness is a thought.

You think?
Nothing is required not even awareness in your terms. No doubt you have some awareness of what is being said.

When you enquire, when you actually go into direct experince and out of thought, please watch this movement very closely. Can you detect a movement going the other way? Is there a point at which this falling into direct experience is halted or held back? Look closely.

Now consider this question: Where is Lobster?

Now consider this answer.

Do not react to it, do not reach for 'nowhere', this is a practiced answer. Look beyond this both externally and internally. If you can't make a mental or physical list with at least 12 things on it you're not really asking.

Now consider the assumptions.

When you push for the internal answers let yourself go into this. Look for the movement or holding back described above. Where does the question stop for you?

At the point of its existence.

Please keep this list in your mind once you have had time to consider it.

Many thanks for your consideration
lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

Thank you for your answers. They are most revealing.

I’ve already suggested to you that the questions here are not asked because of the value of the answer but how complete do you feel your understanding is of why that is the case?

To take this forward I would like you to explain to me, in as much detail as you can why freedom from the illusion of ‘self’ is not to be found in the answer to a question. Please elaborate on where it is to be found.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

To take this forward I would like you to explain to me, in as much detail as you can why freedom from the illusion of ‘self’ is not to be found in the answer to a question. Please elaborate on where it is to be found.

Hi Andrew,

Your question is nonsense. There is no forward or backward.
I am happy to elaborate but not on nonsense, if there is no self there is no question of an answer.

So we are back to awareness without question.

Many thanks
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

Your question is nonsense.

I wasn't asking a question I was making a request.

if there is no self there is no question of an answer.

You have a conceptual belief that there is no 'self', and yet you are at the same time aware that a sense of 'self' persists. It is not clear to you why you can believe there is no 'self' as what you call a 'self evident' fact and yet still have a sense of 'self'.

You have even reached the stage of wondering whether this is it, just the belief you have that there is no 'self' with a sense of 'self' still present, maybe that's as far as anyone ever gets.

Now what you say above is not wrong but as before it is partial and to move things on I would like you to look more deeply. If there is no question of an answer then please explain in as much detal as you can the value of questioning.

If it helps please consider yourself the proposer in a debate and assume this position.

Can I suggest that you consider this from several angles before commiting yourself to a response. It is not a waste of your time so please treat this seriously. I do not require a 5,000 word essay, but a paragraph or two would be nice, if you can manage it.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

You have a conceptual belief that there is no 'self'

This is what you believe, not what is experienced.

and yet you are at the same time aware that a sense of 'self' persists.

I am aware what communication requires.

It is not clear to you why you can believe there is no 'self' as what you call a 'self evident' fact and yet still have a sense of 'self'.

It is perfectly clear to me.
Lack of awareness, stated at the start of this thread.

You have even reached the stage of wondering whether this is it, just the belief you have that there is no 'self' with a sense of 'self' still present, maybe that's as far as anyone ever gets.

No, I know it is not as far as is reachable.

Now what you say above is not wrong but as before it is partial and to move things on I would like you to look more deeply. If there is no question of an answer then please explain in as much detal as you can the value of questioning.

You assume I have said things, with your projections ascribed on them.
I still find value in the process, that is why it continues. The question we might ask, is . . . Well I will leave that for you . . .

Many thanks
lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

So...

This is what you believe, not what is experienced.

Please elaborate in detail what is experienced.

It is perfectly clear to me.
Lack of awareness, stated at the start of this thread.

It is wonderful that you feel so clear about what is required. How do you feel this forum can support you? Please be quite specific in your answers, if there are a number of ways.

If there are other questions you would us to address please list these.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

How do you feel this forum can support you?

Hi Andrew,

You think it has so far? Still projecting?
An increase in awareness occurs in the right situation with the right people. The first support will be asking the right question at the right time in the right way. That has not yet occurred, perhaps you are aware of this, I certainly am. Will this happen and how it will happen or whether it is possible given the forum nature is not an issue as the format clearly works towards its potential. The best that can be said is everyone increases in awareness of the possibilities of the situation. That is sufficient for now.

Many thanks,
lobster