I would like to work with Dreamer

[dreamer]

:)

[gracie]

Hi Vivi,
Love your questions and am ready for another.
I am sitting here in the moment, with all its whirrling and all of its wonder. Wondering if I will ever get it and knowing that I already have.
Such is as it is.

[dreamer]

Hi Gracie

Here are some questions, it seems you have answered them before, but that doesn't matter, they are completely new this instant:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?




2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.




3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.




4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 




5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


Greetings Vivi

[gracie]

Hi Vivi!
Ok here it is..

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, no me in any shape or form. There is a body and ego a memory but those things are not me .
Without that “my” “self” is the same as every thing else, it is all one. . one thing that is experienced. Every thing and every body shows up in the experience because we are the experience.





2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



The illusion of the separate self seems to be based in the mind,(that has no location) which learned to label right off and never was questioned. It then took full ownership of everything including experience.
It has power because most cultures agree that it is real and do not question it . There is a collective agreement about this.
It started with labeling ,( the illusions medium is words and after labels it then went to story telling. It seems like it gets triggered when \there is some perceived danger. Perhaps the main purpose is to protect, however it can become dangerous to its body and even kill it.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.



RELIEF, as though a huge burden has been seen and then fades away. I feel a lightness of being, calmness and clear.
There is a clear choice now that can be made of living in the light or living in a shadow.
It is like one of those optical illusions where you can see two faces by switching your consciousness. The I looks out to see , it takes effort and the label/judgment begins Looking at the optical illusion with the awareness involves allowing the experience , it is relaxing. ” This is very amazing. Thank you so much for your guidance!!!!!!!!!

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it. 



I would use the optical illusion metaphor after I told them that it is the other piece of the puzzle that they have experienced but then either forgot because of the “I”s ownership of the experience.
I would tell them about the trickiness of the“I”~ how greedy it is to possess everything and how isolated it is becaseu of that. Suffering is the experience of the “I”

[dreamer]

Hi Gracie

Thank you very much for the answers

Please explain how this choice is made:

There is a clear choice now that can be made of living in the light or living in a shadow.

:)
Vivi

[gracie]

That could have been from the
"I"
but perhaps the word is switch. as in the optical illusion.

[dreamer]

What is doing the switch? Who is choosing?

Not thoughts! Direct experience
:)

[gracie]

well there it is.The "I " is there.
wanting to take credit.
Ugggg
so in DE there is nothing to choolse, its showing up.
But how I got there was with the illusion . hmmmm

[dreamer]

No problem, this most likely will seem to happen again and again - a belief is found and seen through. Still it is consciousness playing with it self.

Right - there is nothing to choose or switch, it is showing up. Good!

Some more questions:

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?




7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?




8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?




9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?




10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Enjoy
Vivi


[gracie]

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

The I that is used for communication although as we know It sneaks in all the time.




7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?




I can see there is only experience, although I fall into the illusion a lot of having an experiencer. But it is easier and easier to see what is happening at those times.

8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?




Body belongs to experience. It seems like it is not separate from awareness.

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?




I don’t think there was a moment. It is still happening there are many small moments adding up and there are small shifts happening as well. I had expected a big moment but that is not what is happening.

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Vivi a main awakening, hasn’t happened. Small ones have and still are.

[dreamer]

Hi Gracie

What is a main awakening? What is the missing part?

Warm regards Vivi

[dreamer]

Hello again :)

Is it a problem?
If yes, what is the problem, to whom is it a problem?

:)

[gracie]

Hi,
A main awakening is an expectation I can understand that and is part of the I. the missing part?
There seems to be a doubt that keeps it from becoming absolutely clear.
This doubt keeps the direct experience in question.. Yes I am questioning it and there is no I.
I am getting this inch by inch.
It is a problem in that the experiencing is held at bay becaseu of this. Of coarse it is a problem to the"I".
Now I have a queston.
I can see so clearly that there is no me etc, I can see that the brain is like a machine of sorts that the I emerged from and became The reality. Thinking thought from impulses , patterns formed so on.
But is not this awareness, consciousness, being", from the same stuff(the brain) as the ego?
Just it looks different, a different game to play?
when I sit to meditate now after these weeks here with you , I can easily experience the background, the "awareness" and the foreground the thoughts and subsequent things go by without an attachmet.
Is the awareness watching this whole thing ? I appears to "watch, know".It is peaceful and huge. But is it any "realer" than the I?

[dreamer]

Excellent post Gracie :)

Let's look at what you wrote:

A main awakening is an expectation I can understand that and is part of the I.

Right

the missing part?
There seems to be a doubt that keeps it from becoming absolutely clear.
This doubt keeps the direct experience in question.. Yes I am questioning it and there is no I.
I am getting this inch by inch.

What exactly is it about direct experience that is doubted?

It is a problem in that the experiencing is held at bay becaseu of this.

Aha! This is a belief! How can I tell? There is no cause and effect. It is thought only. Is it true? Can you find any cause and effect in DE?

Of coarse it is a problem to the"I".

Of course it is :)

I can see so clearly that there is no me etc,

Great!

I can see that the brain is like a machine of sorts that the I emerged from and became The reality. Thinking thought from impulses , patterns formed so on.

Look closely at the sentence above. What is said in it? That I, thoughts and reality somehow is created in the brain?

But is not this awareness, consciousness, being", from the same stuff(the brain) as the ego? Just it looks different, a different game to play?

Yes it would be, if the brain is what everything comes from....is it?

when I sit to meditate now after these weeks here with you , I can easily experience the background, the "awareness" and the foreground the thoughts and subsequent things go by without an attachmet.

Good! Now look and see if there really is a background and a foreground OR if there is one inseparable experience/-ing/-er? Hearingsound, seeingseen, tastingtaste, touchingsensation, feelingemotion, thinkingthought

Is the awareness watching this whole thing ? I appears to "watch, know".It is peaceful and huge. But is it any "realer" than the I?

Short answer: no

What is real?

Warm regards Vivi


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Tilmeldt: december 22nd, 2012, 6:23 am

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[gracie]

What exactly is it about direct experience that is doubted?

That there is one, could that be an illusion as well?
the"I" is always there ready to jump in
It is a matter of refocusing.
also that the DE is hard to come by. I know about the I but the experience as the alternative is not forthcoming.

Aha! This is a belief! How can I tell? There is no cause and effect. It is thought only. Is it true? Can you find any cause and effect in DE?

no, no casue and effect

Look closely at the sentence above. What is said in it? That I, thoughts and reality somehow is created in the brain?

yes the brain is a mass that has qualities that think as the the stomach has qualities that digest.

Yes it would be, if the brain is what everything comes from....is it?

I dont know. possibly. then there is the mystery, feel uncomfortable withthe word God.

Good! Now look and see if there really is a background and a foreground OR if there is one inseparable experience/-ing/-er? Hearingsound, seeingseen, tastingtaste, touchingsensation, feelingemotion, thinkingthought

I will do this!! have to go now but I will know what that is and what may be real.

:))