Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

[Sat Seeker]

Dear Peter,
Yes, this is definitely the right thing to do.
I had another tense/busy day, and found it difficult to look. I supposed tommorow will be better.
I know that this process with LU in the most (and only) important thing, and yet I am carried away by the collective mind, influenced by expectations of the society. This is too part of the maturing process, but generates noise in the mind. I notice the fear of the mind from direct seeing, expressed as rapid heart beats.
For moments it is so simple, just an experience, no drama of thoughts.
I wish you have a nice retreat, and I hope to report you of some progress when you're back.
Happy silence :)
L.D

[Ingen]

Trust the process, LD.
Keep looking, keep posting.

Sending love, Ingen

[Sat Seeker]

Thank you for the encouragement Ingen...I do have trust problems, and feel dispair very often about my ability to awaken.
I have a quiet day today, so I'm LOOking and will report.
I know that the best way is to look again and again and confont the mind with its avoidance/denial stragedy.
I will report later.

Love, L.D

[Ingen]

Hi LD,

how is it going with looking at "bad feelings" with curiosity instead of rejection? Can you notice how the difference between an imaginary self image and the actual state of affairs creates tension and anxiety?

What if you surrender to the actual state of affairs - meaning just watching the thoughts about it arise and pass?

[Sat Seeker]

Dear Ingen,

When I have a "bad feeling" I try to look directly at it. It is a labeled sensation(s), for sure. I ask to whom does this "unpleasant sensation" belong to? the answer is vague. Yes, it is just "there", but the mind is not happy with the answer, not happy with this sensation, and asks for a change. This situation feels like not being OK with what is, and I don't know how to get through this loop.

I LOOK at the "me" feeling very often, and still believe this feeling represents something real.
When I look directly, without focusing on "me" feeling, there is no center to the experience, and it's easy to see that there is only an experience. But right after, the mind pops in and say "I am not pleased", and I believe it.
The mind has a memory of years of spiritual pleasures, and expectation to some "gift" in the future (sat-chit-ananda).

I can see that the key lies in the thoughts of "something is wrong", and "me feeling is real" (and in believing thoughts in general).

As Peter suggested, I see sometimes, that I just label a sense of aliveness as "me".
Daily experience is just perceived as personal.

I don't know how to stop trusting the mind. I'm very unskilled in watching a thought without believing it (even though I did lots of Katie Byron investigations). The default tendency is to believe every story.
I mean, there are stories that I investigated, so they are no longer appear. But when a story appear, I don't know how to just let it go without paying attention to it.

Actually in the spiritual search, I always tended to flow with the mind's whims, and had an unstable search.
And even though I know for sure that thoughts come and go, I live as though they are a continuous truth.
Again, this war between lies and truth (mind still wins :/)...

I also notice that when I have different exercises to do, I don't know which one to choose, and end up not doing anything. So in my case, I guess, it would be efficient to set one question/exercise and work with it.

What if you surrender to the actual state of affairs - meaning just watching the thoughts about it arise and pass?

This seems like a good option, just to look at the nature of thoughts...(maybe in meditation?)

What do you think?

Best,
L.D

[Ingen]

I LOOK at the "me" feeling very often, and still believe this feeling represents something real.
When I look directly, without focusing on "me" feeling, there is no center to the experience, and it's easy to see that there is only an experience. But right after, the mind pops in and say "I am not pleased", and I believe it.

Who or what believes the thought "I am not pleased"?

I can see that the key lies in the thoughts of "something is wrong", and "me feeling is real" (and in believing thoughts in general).

Look at what is actually happening when believing thoughts.

You have found out that thoughts just show up, right? They are not your thoughts? There is no you to have thoughts in direct experience - is that still clear? Or do you by now think that you have control about which thoughts show up and which don't? We can go back and investigate thoughts, if you want.

Believing thoughts is a two step action:
1) thought x shows up
2) a thought [thought no.1 is true] shows up. It is maybe more like a tag to thought no.1

Both thoughts just show up. There is no entity "you" who is believing thoughts.

And therefore you can't unbelieve a thought by will. It shows up with his believe-tag as long as it shows up.
This might help:
A modified Byron Katie - question:
How would this moment of being alive be without thought x?
and then feel how it would be. Just that.

This seems like a good option, just to look at the nature of thoughts...(maybe in meditation?)

Sure, in meditation, but also during the day!

[Sat Seeker]

Hi Ingen,

Who or what believes the thought "I am not pleased"?

The thought is just believed, and creates tension in the body and other believed thoughts.

You have found out that thoughts just show up, right? They are not your thoughts? There is no you to have thoughts in direct experience - is that still clear? Or do you by now think that you have control about which thoughts show up and which don't? We can go back and investigate thoughts, if you want.

Honestly, I'm not sure what are the standards for clear. In this process I experience that it is clear when I LOOK (also - in different degrees of clarity), but then in daily life, the mind can believe again the opposite thoughts (for example, to believe that "thoughts are mine"), as if never investigated before, or as if it cannot trust the process. That's why confronting the mind with truth can help.

Calrity is always growing since I first started the process, but I wouldn't say that this process is clear as seeing a rope in a snake. For me (and I don't know how it is for others in LU...), the difference between reality and imagination is very subtle, and effort of deep LOOking is needed to see it again and again.
It can be helpful to investigate again the "mine" assumption. It's clear that thoughts pop up, but I tend to think that they are mine, or that the mind and mind-stream is mine. I don't think I have control about which thought pops up, but that there is something that causes the mind to believe thoughts easily, and gaining some clarity about the mind's tendency to label thoughts as "real", may shake this habit.
I mean, if there is no problem at all with thoughts labeled as "real", because they just pop up without control, we wouldn't be here and investigate the "I", isn't it so? This "real" label is the source of suffering.

Believing thoughts is a two step action:
1) thought x shows up
2) a thought [thought no.1 is true] shows up. It is maybe more like a tag to thought no.1

Seems to be true, but not so sure actually...the label "real" too has to be believed, which is another "real" thought, and it goes to infinity. Not sure if believing a thought is a thought, or a different cognitive function in experience, though I cannot find something other than thoughts and sensations.

How would this moment of being alive be without thought x?

Good pointer. I will be doing it and report.

Yesterday, for some time it was clear that without thinking and labeling there is no evidence of "I". The channel of thoughts is an addition that comes after DE.

I feel sometimes the retarded among the students in LU, as if truth doesn't hold for this mind (though, I stopped taking this feeling too seriously...)

L.D

[Ingen]

I can assure you, you are not THAT retarded :)

Yesterday, for some time it was clear that without thinking and labeling there is no evidence of "I". The channel of thoughts is an addition that comes after DE.

Good!

About not being as clear as you 'd like to be: Of course all these years of conditioning are not eliminated immediately.
The thought" how it should be" is just a another thought on top of the first. And these thoughts don't accumulate or extinguish each other. There is a new thought (including the whole "world"), now, now, now....

It could also be that it all has changed much more than you're aware of.

It can be helpful to investigate again the "mine" assumption. It's clear that thoughts pop up, but I tend to think that they are mine, or that the mind and mind-stream is mine.

What does this "mine" point to?

[Sat Seeker]

Hi Ingen,

There is a change, less depression and suffering or craving for a big explosion, but still chronic dissatisfaction, and perception of life as an unpleasant tiring project. I still try to plan and control the experience stream, I guess. I need to remind myself that there is no control. When I need to make decisions it is easlily forgotten.

The exercise of "what this moment be without this thought" is very helpful to see that experience is neutral, but then a thought comes in and creates immediately the suffering. Experience is quite nice when I LOOK without thoughts, very quiet and simple.

What does this "mine" point to?

There is still a story running that this certain flow of experience is mine, as opposed to other flows of experience of others. It is not clear to the mind how it is possible that there are different experiences flows and yet a single awareness, and the easy way is to assume that life is personal.
When I stay with a don't know mind, it is less bothering, I don't know if there are other flows actually.
When I stop thinking and investigate I see that things are just "there", though it becomes more tricky when "I thoughts" or desires are involved. Then "mine" is more dominant.
Mine is an idea that comes after the assumption of "I", that divides objects to different persons ("I"s), and makes experience appear as personal. It is a strange idea, based on nothing, as everything just pop up equally in awareness, and objects appear and dissapear.

[Ingen]

The exercise of "what this moment be without this thought" is very helpful to see that experience is neutral, but then a thought comes in and creates immediately the suffering. Experience is quite nice when I LOOK without thoughts, very quiet and simple.

What if this is your only moment? Could you then "enjoy" the experience as it is, while seeing that the "I"-habit is doing its thing? (It is innocent, it is just a mechanism!)

There is still a story running that this certain flow of experience is mine, as opposed to other flows of experience of others. It is not clear to the mind how it is possible that there are different experiences flows and yet a single awareness, and the easy way is to assume that life is personal.

How do you know there are other flows of experience?

[Sat Seeker]

What if this is your only moment? Could you then "enjoy" the experience as it is, while seeing that the "I"-habit is doing its thing? (It is innocent, it is just a mechanism!)

The mind has resistance about "accepting the moment as is". There is a thought that if the moment is not perceived as fine, I cannot agree that it's fine.
But I started to see the crack in the perception that "something is wrong now". The crack is that the labeling itself of experience as "bad" equals suffering, and it's not something inherent in nature of experience. Still not 100% sure though. Sometimes I think that pain is bad as a law.

How do you know there are other flows of experience?

I don't know. Actually in DE there is no evidence for it, this is only a story.

DE is really a wonderful sword to get rid of stories. I just don't know how to move from the mode of living life through stories, to the mode of experiencing life directly. Is it just a habit to develop or is happening at once?

[Ingen]

But I started to see the crack in the perception that "something is wrong now". The crack is that the labeling itself of experience as "bad" equals suffering, and it's not something inherent in nature of experience. Still not 100% sure though. Sometimes I think that pain is bad as a law.

Yes!! That is "ego": the thought: "something is wrong now." This is the pattern.

How do you know there are other flows of experience?

I don't know. Actually in DE there is no evidence for it, this is only a story.

Exactly, no evidence! Just one seamless self-aware field of ____________ , also called "this".

DE is really a wonderful sword to get rid of stories. I just don't know how to move from the mode of living life through stories, to the mode of experiencing life directly. Is it just a habit to develop or is happening at once?

As you want. You have always the possibility to dodge, and blame your mind for it. ;)

[Sat Seeker]

Sorry for the delay...

As you want. You have always the possibility to dodge, and blame your mind for it. ;)

Funny :)...this is very true, in a sense that it is comfortable to blame the mind and not take responsibility.

I find myself engaged in stories during the day (specially when I have a big dilemma and challenges in life, which I have recently). The mind doesn't agree to investigate and LOOK, until it solves the dilemma. The mind believes that analyzing the dilemma from all directions will protect me, as if LOOKing takes time that needed for analyzing some problems. There is some probelm with dividing time/multi-tasking, but more than this it is also an excuse of the mind that fears direct looking, and tries to delay it, because DE cuts the inertia and cancels the mind's mastery.

Engaging in those stories and dilemmas is quite suffering, and there is a thought that comes often that I'm disconnected from bliss (that I used to feel a lot), that life is exhausting and meaningless, and a conclusion that the spiritual search is in regression because of this feeling. On the other hands, there are thoughts that there is more clarity and sobering, that DE can really help in breaking the walls. There are actually a lot of thoughts about where I am in a process, as if it is some linear project. And it's good to write it here, because it pours light about what is actually going on in the mind, how it clings to stories, and creates suffering.

So I believe those dual thoughts and quite confused about what's going on and how I should continue...there is a longing for satsangs that talks about Sat-chit-ananda, some pill for this feeling of despair, the idea that I can't live and accept what I recognize as true :(

I hope you are not too tired of this Turkish film that runs in my mind...my mind tends to think in black & white, and when I believe those thoughts, my subjective reality can go to extremities.

[Yari]

a conclusion that the spiritual search is in regression because of this feeling

The spiritual search can keep going on and on forever, in circles, it's all speculations of the mind. Liberation is not a "higher" step, not an improvement. Cut away all the ideas you have about it. You gathered all the information you need already, go for action now. Stop looking at it that way, like if you can "understand" what it is, stop projecting ideas about it, stop living in your imagination. Imagination is still mind.
Liberation is destruction, it is a total deprogramming. You are not getting closer to it by gathering more and more concepts about it, quite the opposite.
You detach from everything, including yourself, you become empty. There is nothing to hold on, the more you cling to your expectations the more you'll remain stucked where you are.

because DE cuts the inertia and cancels the mind's mastery.

That's it! That' s why it is useless to keep any grip. Resistance comes from the mind.
Resistence to what anyway? To your surrender? You are not there already.

So I believe those dual thoughts and quite confused about what's going on and how I should continue

This dual endless dance is going on as much as you want it to. It is you who is still playing the game and does not want to come out of it.

What is the point? What are you doing all of this for?

What are you doing all this for? What do you want?
And if you want it, why don't you get it?

You say you still tend to belive you mind...but pay attention, observe it, who is talking in the first place? You trust your mind so much but who is the mind? You trust the voice in your head and belive the thoughts...but who is thinking them?

You gotta face all these questions directly, do not run away because they are gonna come back, it is here where the leap occurs. No way out from this if you wanna go all the way through.
You cannot simply discard the question and avoid to answer or you will not progress. There is a mind indeed, but who is in charge here?

You gotta get rid of all that keeps you stucked. All that gets in the way between you and that you want to accomplish.

there is a longing for satsangs

Then do it, keep watching at satsangs for the rest of your life. Are you addicted to them maybe? Are you afraid to really find out what that talking is all about? Or do you really want to have a glimpse of what is spoken about...the unspeakable...

[Sat Seeker]

Hi Yari,

Much thanks. This post was very helpful, and also had a good day of LOOKing...more clarity and surrender.

Resistence to what anyway? To your surrender? You are not there already.

Yes, I can see that this is a fear without any reason...just fear, just resistance...wierd!

What is the point? What are you doing all of this for?

What are you doing all this for? What do you want?
And if you want it, why don't you get it?

Right. I want liberation. I think that I don't get it because I buy the stories of the resistant mind, and also because there is not enough clarity/assimilation of truth (though it's getting better as I keep DE-ing...). The mind tries to delay liberation, out of fear (fear of nothing!) and I allow those tricks.

You say you still tend to belive you mind...but pay attention, observe it, who is talking in the first place? You trust your mind so much but who is the mind? You trust the voice in your head and belive the thoughts...but who is thinking them?

Yes, it is the mind talking...or better to say that one thought appears and says that "I still tend to believe the mind". The mind is an idea of a mechanism that contains thoughts and emotions. Actually there are just thoughts...so this tendency is just thought appearing frequently after thoughts, that other thoughts are true. (and this is an idea that such a tendency exists, based on memory, and comparison)
Thoughts just appear out of nowhere...no evidence to think that there is some entity that thinks them.

There is a mind indeed, but who is in charge here?

I don't know. Seems that no-one in charge, any god is a speculation (and who is operating god's desire?)...things are the way they are

Then do it, keep watching at satsangs for the rest of your life. Are you addicted to them maybe? Are you afraid to really find out what that talking is all about? Or do you really want to have a glimpse of what is spoken about...the unspeakable...

I was addicted in the past to spiritual energies that are present in satsangs, to the sense of divinity, feeling of freedom, and hope for freedom, when truth is described in words by enlightened teacher. I think I am not addicted now, I'd gone through rehab, but I do have longings sometimes (specially when the mind is very busy, and there is suffering).
However, I could notice an interesting thing - this longing is only a sudden thought that comes and goes (once in a while). Its content is very intense, but it's not anything continuous, just a stronger "I want X", this empty construct which is always unsatisfied from some reason.
I am probably afraid...I can notice fear everytime the possibility feels real, and a thought that I need to run away, but I can see that there is no good reason for the fear. I would say fear of change and dissapointment, but this is an excuse. The current state of imagination and resistance sucks enough, so nothing to really lose in a change. And clinging to fantasies instead of surrendering to truth is never a wise choice. It is a protection mechanism, without anyone to protect...funny...

And to your last question - yes, of course I want to know the unspeakable, not only when I investigate, but to be clear about it without effort...or in other words, to be free of imaginations and illusions. And there is a fear too. Unreasonable, but still there.