The Gate

I'm struggling here, emotionally. The thoughts are labeling an experience of sensations that the body is having due to the reaction of thoughts, external stimuli and internal stimuli. This is what I understand to be how emotions and feelings happen.

I can't help the way I feel. It's understood that thoughts happen on their own, automatically, I've SEEN that. I think the relief and clarity and happiness that most people on here feel and experience is just something that won't happen. I notice and feel and see no-self. But it didn't change anything. And my problem is the belief that it will, which caused me to keep searching and searching after catching the glimpses. I still feel like a crappy person and am reminded of that every day, regardless of knowing "I" can't be hurting because "I" don't exist.

I know this is stupid to say, but I have to add it anyways. December 21st is a couple weeks away, and although that's just a story, many people seem to believe in it and have "proof" and stuff. I always thought something positive would come out of that date, but it just adds more anxiety. I'm trying to better "my life", to make it more enjoyable for me than it is by getting my own car soon, exercising, being okay with not being with my ex, falling in love, finally meeting new people, moving out. If the world as we know it does end, and there's a new "THIS", then that's that. I didn't live the life I wanted, with more peace or helping people out or having interesting experiences. It saddens me DEEPLY.

Hey Jonathan,

I can't help the way I feel. It's understood that thoughts happen on their own, automatically, I've SEEN that. I think the relief and clarity and happiness that most people on here feel and experience is just something that won't happen.

Whatever is felt is what is felt. There are thoughts about apparent others feeling apparent other things, yet you don't have any experiential evidence about any such things, you are just speculating. Whatever is happening in Experience, is what is happening in Experience.

I notice and feel and see no-self. But it didn't change anything. And my problem is the belief that it will, which caused me to keep searching and searching after catching the glimpses. I still feel like a crappy person and am reminded of that every day, regardless of knowing "I" can't be hurting because "I" don't exist.

What did you expect it to change? What are you still expecting it to change?

If there is indeed no separate self, and you have truly SEEN no-self, and you have truly realize that it happens to noone or no-thing, then what does it matter what happens?

There are sensations, thoughts, feelings, and then there are thoughts about it. There is no point in thinking "I can't hurt because I don't exist"... that is just a thought... just another thought that arises in the mind.

I know this is stupid to say, but I have to add it anyways. December 21st is a couple weeks away, and although that's just a story, many people seem to believe in it and have "proof" and stuff. I always thought something positive would come out of that date, but it just adds more anxiety. I'm trying to better "my life", to make it more enjoyable for me than it is by getting my own car soon, exercising, being okay with not being with my ex, falling in love, finally meeting new people, moving out. If the world as we know it does end, and there's a new "THIS", then that's that. I didn't live the life I wanted, with more peace or helping people out or having interesting experiences. It saddens me DEEPLY.

You still clearly have Expectations about this process and perhaps see it as some self-improvement process. It is not. The focus here is on seeing through the illusion of separation/self and on seeing through the speculative nature of thought, specifically the speculation that there is someone there that suffers, and that there is someone there to fix.

Again...

Contemplate deeply,

SURRENDER.

LETTING GO.

There is Experience, and within that Experience, or 'this', there are all sorts of appearances of people and persons and several arising thoughts about 'worlds ending'. All of that arises here, and now. There is a belief that part of 'this', commonly what we refer to as 'body' and 'mind' is "I" or "me". Yet they are all just arising, here and now, freely, with no separate "You". Investigate this deeply.

The appearance of a 'Jonathan' arises who is sad, hopeful, frustrated - and that is OK.
The appearance of 'others' talking about 2012 and worlds ending and theories and proof going up and down - and that is OK
There is the experience of Love, hurt, pain - and that is OK
There is the experience of wanting to rip the hair out of your head - and that is OK
Whatever arises... it is OK. How can it not? It is arising. That is that.
Truly investigate all of this... does it arise TO anyone?

Are you tired of the bullshit Jonathan? Are you tired of telling yourself "there is no "I"" and still suffering? Investigate this deeply.

How can I help you see through the illusion? What do you need to investigate? Where is there separation? Where is there an assumption of a "You"?

Thank you for your kind words. You have been truly amazing in helping me see clearly. Slowly but surely surrendering is taking place. After I read your message, I deeply contemplated surrendering and letting go. This is where I am right now, with these two concepts. Sensations, feelings, emotions, events people, anything you can think of never stays. It arises and disappears. Just like no-self and identification with self. The illusion has already been seen through. There is absolutely NO separation. I guess the problem is just how the feelings get dealt with. I've noticed that when I'm doing work, or just walking or whatever, and a negative thought emerges, an emotional charge happens and then a bunch of thoughts emerge about that experience, telling story after story until I can't take it anymore. And I just DON'T know how to deal with it the right way. I guess the only true way is through surrender and letting go. Or if someone tells me something I don't wanna hear, the emotional charge happens and then all the thoughts fly about. BUT NONE OF THAT IS PERMANENT. They're just thoughts, not pointing to any reality. What I need to investigate is that the idea that our personalities are constructs and nothing that is a fixed essence is a little discouraging but I don't know why. For the longest time I was searching for who "I" was, what kind of person I am, and now I realize that we're just nothing. It's scary.

Jonathan,

Yeah... no separate anything, no separate self... just thoughts of separation which may cause some affective emotions, but that is OK. It is fine :)

I guess the problem is just how the feelings get dealt with. I've noticed that when I'm doing work, or just walking or whatever, and a negative thought emerges, an emotional charge happens and then a bunch of thoughts emerge about that experience, telling story after story until I can't take it anymore. And I just DON'T know how to deal with it the right way. I guess the only true way is through surrender and letting go.

I understand. And it's great to NOT know. There is nothing to know. You can just let thoughts and emotions and crrash and burn. What if the right way to 'deal' with them was to not 'deal' with them at all? What if 'dealing with them' was the problem? What if that tendency, however subtle or gross, to change What-Is, here and now, was the problem? What if you just let whatever arose, especially those that were 'negative' totally destroy 'you' :) Let it do it's fucking worst... see how much power it has :) It can never touch You... because there is no You :)

Or if someone tells me something I don't wanna hear, the emotional charge happens and then all the thoughts fly about. BUT NONE OF THAT IS PERMANENT.

It's never permanent. We can make it seem permanent by making it in to a problem that we can try to deal with everytime it shows up... not knowing that the very problem is the thought about there being a problem, and especially the assumption of there being a problem-solver. What a fucking joke :)

What I need to investigate is that the idea that our personalities are constructs and nothing that is a fixed essence is a little discouraging but I don't know why. For the longest time I was searching for who "I" was, what kind of person I am, and now I realize that we're just nothing. It's scary.

Well the thing is Jonathan, they are really all ideas.

We can say, there is no self.

We can say there is ONLY You (not a separate person).

We can say there is only Experience experience itself.

We can say that there is only 'this', and 'this' is aware of itself, and the appearance of a person arises in 'this' along with several other things, yet there are never any such 'things'... just 'this' that is :) and you are 'this' :)

Wholeness seeking itself :) Completeness trying to complete itself :)

But who cares about ideas. We want to penetrate in to the heart of the Truth, the simple Truth, here and now. No separate You, no separation, nothing that is separate from Life, and NEVER anything that can be harmed, and NEVER anything that can be grasped by a mere thought. If anything, you are too cosmic to be grasped :)

LOOK DEEPLY... is there anyone or anything behind any of this?

So let's tackle this...

Why are you discouraged?
is there a 'you' that is discouraged?

What are you afraid?
is there a 'you' that is afraid?


with Love.

You're right. Acceptance is key here. There is no controller of life. I'm discouraged at my life situations. I get sad looking around and seeing people depressed and at the point of suicide in some extreme cases. People that I actually know. I am discouraged because I was using no-self as a self improvement method. But that's not the case. There is no me that is discouraged. The feeling that is being described by thought as discouragement is here and now. It ALWAYS comes back.

I'm afraid that 'I" will never be able to relax. What I mean by that is that these thoughts that are labeled as tormenting will not dissipate.

For the longest time I've been feeling that I've been wasting my time. It's the only way that I can describe it. That I've just been taking everything for granted. I just feel that time is running out. I can't shake it.

These are all stories that my thoughts tell. I know that. They're being believed. Without a me. Because if they weren't believed in they would just disappear. The idea that if I just ignore them, and pretend they're not there and eventually they will go away is just a story. So basically, my thoughts tell a story and within that story there is a sense of self that is believing them. Without the stories, there's just this simplicity. I see through the illusion, that everything without thought is complete. And at the same time, thought is not this outside force that fucks things up, it's part of that which is complete. Everything that I'm feeling is within this that is complete. The stories are just horrible. And "I" can't do anything about it...so in a sense it is liberating, but it's also sad because of the feeling that I'm running out of time which I can't shake. That's where I am.

Can anything exist without thoughts? Can experience exist without thought? It seems to me that things exist because thoughts appear to say they so. How do I know awareness exists?

Hey Jonathan,

You're right. Acceptance is key here. There is no controller of life. I'm discouraged at my life situations. I get sad looking around and seeing people depressed and at the point of suicide in some extreme cases. People that I actually know. I am discouraged because I was using no-self as a self improvement method. But that's not the case. There is no me that is discouraged.

Whatever arises is fine. Thought likes to divide Experience in to 'others lives' and 'your life situation'. It may seem as if you are being selfish, but stick to the process and focus on Liberation.

And Yes... there is never a YOU. You've seen this for yourself... I don't need to tell you :)

The feeling that is being described by thought as discouragement is here and now. It ALWAYS comes back.

I'm afraid that 'I" will never be able to relax. What I mean by that is that these thoughts that are labeled as tormenting will not dissipate.

Let the fear be there too Jonathan. Just entertain the possibility that it will NEVER get better, that it will ONLY get worse. Let any hiding "I" come out. See through the illusion.

and you DON'T KNOW that you will never be able to relax, that it will ALWAYS come back. You don't know any of these for sure. Only thoughts would argue. Patterns may continue, but once the core is seen through... who the fuck cares? Anything is free to arise. When they have nothing to stick to they will disappear on their own, but not by you trying to fix it... i'm sure you realize that is a fools game. I won't lie to you... 'conditioning' may remain, but it is fine, because there is noone that is conditioned. There never was. It's okay to let go.

For the longest time I've been feeling that I've been wasting my time. It's the only way that I can describe it. That I've just been taking everything for granted. I just feel that time is running out. I can't shake it

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN...

These feelings are free to show up... let them do their worst... just do one thing... just keep looking in to your absence :)

These are all stories that my thoughts tell. I know that. They're being believed. Without a me. Because if they weren't believed in they would just disappear. The idea that if I just ignore them, and pretend they're not there and eventually they will go away is just a story.

Yep... noone is saying 'ignore' them. You can just recognize that they are just thoughts, just some affective emotions, and most importantly that they are never personal, because there is no such claimant, no such person ... ONLY thoughts about such things :) Right?

Without the stories, there's just this simplicity.

Dreadfully simple. You see why there is so much turmoil? Thoughts are going nuts trying to figure it out. Impossible. They are just thoughts... yet they are free to arise as well.

I see through the illusion, that everything without thought is complete. And at the same time, thought is not this outside force that fucks things up, it's part of that which is complete.

'this' is ALWAYS complete.

Before you saw the illusion, After you see through the illusion. Any thoughts about anything are free to arise in 'this'.

Everything that I'm feeling is within this that is complete.

How can it ever NOT be? :)

The stories are just horrible. And "I" can't do anything about it...so in a sense it is liberating, but it's also sad because of the feeling that I'm running out of time which I can't shake. That's where I am.

You're doing great! Let whichever do whatever whenever... just look deeply in to your absence. Look deeply in to any "I" or "me" that is assumed to be there. It is getting horrible because thoughts are fighting to maintain its self-referencing throne. How can it ever? They are just thoughts :)

'this' that you are is always free. anything is free to arise in it. anything.

it's a pleasure working with you Jonathan,

where do we go from here. Tell me.

with Love.

I notice in moments of great stress do thoughts run amok. It's crazy how bad of a rep thoughts get, hehe. I just imagined thoughts being appalled by such hostility towards them. But the cosmic joke is that "everything" is thought. But it's also much greater than thought, if that makes sense. Thought can't grasp what we are, which is nothing. The mind can't comprehend no-thing, I don't think. I think because it's hard to comprehend what life would be like without thought. Just a pure knowing, maybe? This tugging, this yearning to find ourselves isn't a coincidence. It seems like we spend our lives looking for ourselves just to find out there's nothing there. Just an awareness that is pure experience.

It's beautiful. Tears are coming down as I write this. 'This' is so strange. So incomprehensible. To be sitting here talking about myself, so to speak. Life seeking life.

:)

Any doubts my friend? Ready for the final questions?

No doubts. Lay them on me!

Here are the final questions :)

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.


1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?


1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?



7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?



8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?



9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

There is not. In any way, shape, or form. I can't find an 'I" when I look. I can't smell an "I", I can't hear and "I" (only as thought) I can't taste an "I", and I can't feel an I. The only thing I feel is heavy sensations and pressure around my forehead, back of head, pressure and tireness in the eyes. Constantly. There never was. And there never will suddenly be an experience-er of life outside of thought.

When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

When I say I, it's just a convinience for other people, not for myself. Even though a thought comes up claiming to be I, it doesn't serve a purpose, only to reinforce the illusion. Because that's the only way that "I" can exist.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of a separate self is thinking that there is an out there and an inside. To think that you are this entity INSIDE of a body, inside of a world of other entities that seemingly experience, and objects. It starts with language. Language separates. It's a tool for communication and understanding. But along the way, as we were learning what things were, we started assigning those objects to a me. Conditioning took place from people who were conditioned themselves.

How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.

It FEELS good. But in the sense that things don't grip me as bad. There's nothing to be gripped! Everything in 'THIS' is never a fixed essence. Nobody can just lay in bed forever without moving, it's impossible. Whatever it is that is supposed to happen throughout the day, will happen, including thoughts, whether there is resistance to it or not. There are some things the mind cannot grasp and it's only be direct experience that you ever truly KNOW anything. I've always felt this, but couldn't figure out how to SEE it.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

This is tough for me, because i'm not good at explaining things. I would tell them to look at how the body does things on its own, and how everything around them does things on its own. I'll tell them to notice how there's no way to predict a thought or to stop them for very long. That indicates you can't control your thoughts. Ill tell them that the only thing that they seemingly have some control over is their breath, but that's because a thought (that they did not think, but the thought claims someone did) comes in and you start breathing a certain way. If they're religious and believe in an outside force, i'll tell them to see how ridiculous that there is anything outside of THIS. This is all there is. If there is a god separate from this, then he must have his own 'all that is' and that makes no sense.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

It was ALL gradual, hehe. But working with you definitely made it smooth, even though there were bumps. The biggest bump was getting caught up identification. There were periods of no-self and identification, and identification usually ruled.

describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?

Before: I was looking "outward", not questioning what was looking, exactly. relying more on thought.
At the moment: Unspoken bliss. It cannot be worded...at least, I can't word it. "I" was the sounds, the smells, the tastes, the objects.
After: Still conditioning and thought patters, but they are seen as just that, but not seen during thoughts. Impossible, because that still implies a THING that is LOOKING at thoughts. Thoughts take over, then thought of what had just happened, then more thoughts until the illusion is back on track.

in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?

It's changed my life soley because i no longer have the desire to keep searching and looking for any answers. Any true knowledge will be experienced. No book or person is gonna give me the experience. The impact it will have is to not take ANYTHING personally.

what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?

that would suck big time, lol. It would cause thoughts of worry, but they're only thoughts. No one there to worry. The idea of an external or internal negative stimuli hurting a me is only in thought. It can't be unseen.

9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

Your guiding was perfect. You were patient with all my ramblings. and you responded very quickly. What was effective is that you were very blunt and direct and didn't feed me spiritual jargon. Nothing comes to mind for any noneffective guidings.

Jonathan :)

Thanks. Now these answers go for review by other guides. If there are clarifications or further questions from them, I will post them, if not you will be Confirmed. You will then have access to our post-gate groups for discussions/play/inquiry/chat with others. There is also 2 great groups for dealing with conditioning that I will add you to after confirmation so that you can look at some of the conditioning that comes up.

It was a pleasure to work with you m friend,

I will contact you soon,

Keep looking in to your absence,

with Love.

awesome! again thank you for your patience. im looking forward to hearing from you!