belladonna123 this is thread is for you

[Shell]

Hello dear Karen!

It seems that you really SEE that life is just lifing along...one experience after the other, be it what somtimes might be referred to as an internal experience, or an experience of the outer world. The two are not separte in any way. They've just been labeled inner and outer....Its all just part of the entire experiencing, which is not personal. It is not happening to anyone. There is no one out there or in here. Just life lifing along.

Lets have a shot at the final questions, then, shall we?

Please, write very fully and in you own words. Direct SEEING. Please, really take your time with each question. Perhaps you would like to read through them all first...otherwise you might find yourself answering question 4 in question 1 already...In a sense, please forget this entire thread and treat these questions very freshly from your experience and certainty, now.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience? Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening


Much love,
Shell xxx

[belladonna123]

Please, write very fully and in you own words. Direct SEEING. Please, really take your time with each question. Perhaps you would like to read through them all first...otherwise you might find yourself answering question 4 in question 1 already...In a sense, please forget this entire thread and treat these questions very freshly from your experience and certainty, now.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No, there is no "me" or "self" and there never was. My body is just "a" body and cannot possibly be me. My mind or brain is just a receiver of thoughts that are not "mine" and they are not "me". There are thousands of thoughts that run through the mind every day, always changing, so they cannot possibly be "me". I cannot say "I" am in my limbs or organs or anywhere else. I cannot point to the "I". There is nothing that is separate from anything else. Seeing and seen are simultaneous. We create the illusion of separate things by our labels. We create these labels in order to function in this world as "seemingly" separate beings.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

When we're babies, we are told and shown by parents/caregivers, that we have a name and that they have a name also and at first when we are taught language and how to communicate, we are asked, "Is Peggy hungry?" Then we learn "You" and "I", and we are asked questions like "Are YOU hungry?". We are taught that certain things are "yours" and certain things are "mine". These are just labels like, "This is a book", "this is a chair", "this is the U.S.A.". So we believe we are the body. All these things reinforce the illusion of separateness and we begin to have opinions, beliefs, judgments that we believe to be ours. These values come from whatever thoughts are believed.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

I feel like I am still in shock a little. This goes against everything I had ever been taught or believed in, this even conflicts with most of my spiritual studies. This also pisses me off a bit, but then there really is nobody to be mad at, is there? It's just an anger thought that comes and is believed by the mind. However, as I go about my day, I begin to laugh because I see how absurd everything really is and how all our pain and suffering is here because we believe we exist and we exist separately.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I think I basically answered that in question 2.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

It was gradual, there were a few things that gave me small "Aha" moments. One was when I had thought that "I" was my mind and I realized if I had a brain transplant would I still be me? And I thought yes, I would. But then I thought well if I would still be me, then the "I" couldn't be in the brain could it? So then where was the I??? I realized I couldn't find it. I also thought of a comatose patient and a severely retarded person who had no opinions or beliefs, and I realized I could not be my opinions or beliefs but still I could not find the "I" in the comatose patient or severely retarded person. I also had a moment where I felt pity for someone because controlling thoughts were thoughting and were being believed and acted upon by this person. I realized she had no control over the controlling thoughts and that "she" wasn't even there. Then I started having a bunch of loving thoughts towards people I knew. I began thinking of animals and plants and how could one animal think another animal was less than or is a tulip better or worse than a daisy?

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

I am referring to this body called Karen which experiences happen to and thoughts happen to and is surviving on its own without any conscious actions taken.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience? Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

There is only experience. The body belongs to experience, it has no control.

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

It's weird, the morning I decided to start this process before I had even answered any questions I had a big spiritual experience while on break at work. I felt very very calm and peaceful and I felt like taking my time with everything, I wanted only to move slowly. It felt like someone had drugged me with a sedative. Then I went walking and tons of information started to fill my brain, some of which conflicted with my A Course in Miracles beliefs, and a few other beliefs that I had had. One thing that came to me was that Life is Not a School and Everything is Perfect as it is. When I came back to my desk that day I wrote all the things down on a piece of paper. Same thing happened the next day at work. Then it just stopped, no more slow, peaceful feelings or information. However, I don't believe those were my "awakening" experiences because I didn't even intellectually understand at that point that there is no "I".

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

I would say during the days that followed the initial spiritual experiences I had had before, I felt relieved. Like it doesn't matter what this body does, or what thoughts this mind decides to believe, it is just being done, believed. I don't have the responsibility that I once thought I did.

Thanks.
Karen

[Shell]

Thank you dearest, Karen, for you answers.

As I have already explained to you, I'm going to offer this thread to other guides to check through...maybe they will have extra questions for us. As I have already explained to you...this is not an EXAM..its just that you are so worthy that we want to sort of double check ourselves with the help of other guides.

Can you answer just one more question from me, dearest? Because your own confirmation is what is necessary. Not the confirmation from "other" guides or "me".

Are you absolutely sure, no doubt whatsoever, that you have seen through the illusion of "I"?

I will submit this thread now to the guides and founders of this site. Please dont worry if an answer back takes a weee while to come back . Its the weekend...and even guides need a break ;-) (not from you! just to attend to normal daily life things like family...)

Much love,
Shell xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Shell]

Post 2 back to back..check above, dearest Karen.
For some reason, I cant log on to the Guides site this evening. There seems to be a computer internet glitch. I will keep trying for an hour...then I must get some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. And I will try again first thing in the morning. Just to let you know.

But maybe its good. There are a few things that you have shared through a pm. Is there anything from those pm's that you feel you would like to include into this thread? Just an idea...but ignore it if it does not feel right xxxxxx

[Shell]

OK I am taking you up on question 3, dearest Karen. There is something that you felt unbelievably deeply, which you have not revealed in your answer in question 3 above (final questions.)...and yet which you revealed privately in pms.

And yet, this is possibly the most important of all. What did you leave out and why? (Please, you have all the permission in the world to leave "Shells" name out of the answer xxxx)

[belladonna123]

OK I am taking you up on question 3, dearest Karen. There is something that you felt unbelievably deeply, which you have not revealed in your answer in question 3 above (final questions.)...and yet which you revealed privately in pms. And yet, this is possibly the most important of all. What did you leave out and why? (Please, you have all the permission in the world to leave "Shells" name out of the answer xxxx)

That even knowing that there is no "I" who has experienced tragedy that doesn't prevent one from feeling grief or anger that there are painful things out there that have to be experienced. I still feel for the people who don't know that "they" as they think of themselves don't exist. I have compassion for them. Is that what you mean? There isn't any reason in particular that I omitted saying that. I don't think there's anything wrong in saying or not saying that.

[belladonna123]

Are you absolutely sure, no doubt whatsoever, that you have seen through the illusion of "I"?

First off, I'm not in a hurry so take all the time you need. XXXOOO

I have to say no, I'm not absolutely sure because I don't know what's supposed to happen when I have seen through the illusion of I to say, yes, that has happened to me. Let me compare it to when I first learned there was no Santa. I remember being about 7 I think and being slightly suspicious that there wasn't a Santa and that my dad might be Santa. So knowing that my dad hated milk, I left a giant glass of milk on the kitchen counter along with some cookies for "Santa" to snack on. I figured if the glass was still full when I woke up that would "prove" my dad was Santa. I woke up and the glass was empty so I thought hmm there must be a Santa, not allowing for the fact that he could have just dumped it in the sink or my mother could have drank it. My 7 yr old mind couldn't think of those other possibilities. Then a few months later some girl told me there was no Santa. So I asked my grandma if that was true and she said I needed to talk to my parents and sounded very agitated. That night my mom sat me down and explained there was no Santa. I think I was slightly disappointed but not super surprised. Of course since then I knew there was no Santa and had no doubts. I would never believe in Santa again. Now do I truly believe there is no "I"? Yes! Would I ever change my belief and begin to think there was an "I" again? No! Do I feel like my life has changed now? No. I feel like my life will continue on as always. The same way it did when I found out there was no Santa. The only thing that changed was I wasn't "duped" anymore. I didn't leave snacks out for Santa anymore, so really you could say the only thing that changed was that Christmastime was different for me and I felt like I couldn't trust everything my parents told me anymore. So now - I feel like I'm not duped anymore and that I cannot trust anything my senses tell me. Hmmm maybe I do feel a little disappointed that there is no "I".
Karen

[Shell]

Good morning dearest, Karen,

I will PM you. There are no more questions...its clear that you have seen through the illusion of "I" and the feedback has been unamimous in this xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Well done my dear friend, I am thrilled for you xxxx

Shell