The Gate

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I don't know how the movement is controlled. I don't see a controller. It is a paradox. It is not thought. I I want to say "I" am controlling it, but I don't experience that to be true. It's not moving on its own, because I'm responding to your query, which leads to the next question.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't see a conscious decision being made. There is something driving the hand turning, but I can't find it specifically. It's not a thought or me. There is input - you asking me to turn my hand and then the impulse to do the exercise. I can see that I could decide not to do it.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I’m right-handed, so it seemed to be the natural choice; again I could not track a specific decision to do it. When I began responding to the question, I switched hands, so I could continue the exercise. I cannot find a separate individual choosing when to turn the palm up or down. I can’t find anything; it is strange. I don’t even see a decision being made.

There is something driving the hand turning, but I can't find it specifically. It's not a thought or me.

So, what is that thing then?

If you can’t find it, don’t replace “me” with another invisible entity. Simply notice that the movement… happens…

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Erin' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look nice for that person!) etc.
Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Erin' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Can you find anywhere where 'Erin' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No, i can see where the illusion of a self “intervenes,” but it is an illusion. I can’t find anywhere where “Erin” can intervene in life. Sometimes a feeling is there that I identify as me is there, but I can sometimes see that things happen under that.
For example, if I think about my left foot, my awareness goes there. My inclination is to think “I’m” moving my awareness, but I can see my awareness there and that the sense of self doing it is an illusion. I can see my hand moving just as happening or moving without a director. It is a bit of a strange observation.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look nice for that person!) etc.]
Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere? [/quote
I am packing for a trip and having to select clothes. I’ve been to the beach a number of times, but still am thinking about what to take. I consider color, weight, what will be comfortable, and cool. Even factors such as whether I’ve worn the item recently or not is part of the decision. So there are color choices based on what’s available. There is also the practicle in these decisions. These types of decisions seem more impersonal to me I guess. I don’t see “autonomous intervention.” It does make me more aware of the decision process. Sometimes I clothes my eyes and pay attention to what feels right, but often I’m weighing pros and cons. It’s the same with lunch - what is leftover, what is older and needs to be eaten things like that. I can also go with whatever is feeling right at the time.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Erin' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I think I see that that is an illusion now. I have to keep checking. I can’t find anything that Erin is responsible for. It is a strange insight. I can’t make decisions, but even those don’t seem specifically ‘mine’. It is so subtle, the movement.

Yes, exactly. It is subtle.

Sometimes I clothes my eyes and pay attention to what feels right, but often I’m weighing pros and cons.

Did you choose which process would dominate?
Or did one naturally become more prominent in that moment?

I think I see that that is an illusion now. I have to keep checking.

Just notice ordinary moments like reaching for a cup, choosing a meal,feeling tired after a long day…

Is anything happening outside this movement?

And is there anyone responsible for the process of checking?

Did you choose which process would dominate?
Or did one naturally become more prominent in that moment?

No, I often go back on forth to using logic to make decisions, or sometimes just trying to listen inside, but I often find that confusing and less clear. I'll have to pay more attention. I suspect even when I say I'm using logic I ultimately go with my gut.

Is anything happening outside this movement?

No I can't find anything happening outside this movement. It often seems automatic without much specific thought or input from "me." Right now I'm noticing a strange disconnect between movement and choice and who is actually making those movements or choices. At a deep level there is a habit that thinks it is 'me,' but I'm seeing that it is an illusion. The feeling or sense of self comes and goes.

And is there anyone responsible for the process of checking?

No there is no one responsible for checking. It seems to be an open awareness or observation that sees it - being open to what is actually happening.

The feeling or sense of self comes and goes.

This is an important observation.

If the self comes and goes, can it be what you fundamentally are?

A genuine entity doesn’t disappear for a while and then reappear. A sensation does. A thought does. A mood does.

So when the sense of self is absent, does life stop?

It seems to be an open awareness or observation that sees it

Right now, in immediate experience, canyou actually find an observer? Or is there simply checking happening?

Can you locate something that is observing, separate from what is observed? Or is “observer” another label that thought places on the fact that experience is already occurring?

If the self comes and goes, can it be what you fundamentally are?
A genuine entity doesn’t disappear for a while and then reappear. A sensation does. A thought does. A mood does.
So when the sense of self is absent, does life stop?

No, since the self comes and goes it cannot be what I fundamentally am.

Right now, in immediate experience, canyou actually find an observer? Or is there simply checking happening?

There is just checking happening. Ahh, but there is a subtle attachment to that idea of an observer - someone looking.

Can you locate something that is observing, separate from what is observed? Or is “observer” another label that thought places on the fact that experience is already occurring?

But no, I can’t locate a separate self. It is another label. It seems like it filters my experiences. I have to catch that labeling in action then things seem obvious and clear. It isn’t easy or natural for me.Experience is just happening.It seems like that illusion of a self is ever so slowly dissolving away.

It isn’t easy or natural for me

Is this true?
:)

What?
I did see you’re response until this morning and had not received a notification in my email, very strange. Not sure what happened.

Is this true?

It seems like in my experience that I have to bring my awareness specifically, but now I’m starting to see it is always there and even when I think it’s lost it isn’t. I still get angry or annoyed. I can still feel offended, does that go away? Now I ask “who is angry, annoyed,etc.” I usually don’t find anyone , but I still feel the feeling.

•did not • see your message…

Once in a while the site has an outage and notifications sometimes are missed. Unless something unforseen happens I always intend to reply within 2 days, so in future if that goes by with no notification, check the thread directly.

What we focus on here at LU is the seeing through of self, which is as you describe here: no owner for emotion and yet the emotions still arise unowned. Working through the beliefs underpinning these emotions can be done post gatecrashing, we can point to some resources.

For now, can anger be experienced completely without turning it into “my anger”?
Is ‘offended’ able to be seen as a story once the one who is offended is seen through?

It seems like in my experience that I have to bring my awareness specifically, but now I’m starting to see it is always there and even when I think it’s lost it isn’t

What is it that has to bring awareness?

Strangely I looked on the site a few times after a couple days and did not see your response until yesterday.

For now, can anger be experienced completely without turning it into “my anger”?
Is ‘offended’ able to be seen as a story once the one who is offended is seen through?

I’d say it is more difficult with anger than with being offended. I notice with offended I can see the emotions, but cannot find a self.

What we focus on here at LU is the seeing through of self, which is as you describe here: no owner for emotion and yet the emotions still arise unowned.

I understand this statement. It feels like there is an owner, but I recognize that there is no one there just the feeling. So perhaps we are done and the rest of the work I just have to do?
I’ve been reading through the message string again and revisiting some of the questions.
Do you know how long I’ll have access to this conversation?

Hi Erin,

Nothing is deleted on this site, every conversation lives here so you are able to revisit.

but cannot find a self.

Is there anything to find? Did a self ever exist?

I’d say it is more difficult with anger

Don’t try to get rid of the anger. Let anger be completely, fully there and take up as much space as it likes.
Where is the actual sensation?
What does it consist of, without the label “anger”?

So perhaps we are done and the rest of the work I just have to do?

Is there someone who would own that action?

Is a sense of seeking still present?

Is there anything to find? Did a self ever exist?

No, a self never existed. I can still feel the the sensations that I label self. It is not gone, but it is easier for me to see through the attachment and illusion. I recognize the feelings and I see how I attach the label of “me” to it. Those sensations have not gone away, but I see through them and see how I attach the label of “I” to things like my body even though when I truly look I see that “I” am not there.

Where is the actual sensation?
What does it consist of, without the label “anger”?

Anger feels like an explosion in my head and gut. It is dark and fills my senses. I look for “who is angry” and do not find anything. Thoughts immediately arise “justifying” the feelings or even why something makes me angry. When I feel anger I feel a tightness in my body, but sometimes it can feel like my brain is being squeezed. I feel hot. I often just sit with it. I

Is there someone who would own that action?

Habits die hard. I feel like I still need to bring awareness to the habit of identifying with a self or “I”. Seeing through the illusion. I haven’t had a big ah ha moment with everything falling away, just small glimpses showing through the illusion.

Is a sense of seeking still present?

Not seeking, but perhaps settling? Settling into truth, observing and just being present with the movement of thoughts, the body, the environment, the labeling. I don’t really feel like I’m seeking anymore, so that is new, but I still feel like there is more work to do if that makes sense.

I haven’t had a big ah ha moment with everything falling away, just small glimpses showing through the illusion.

Yes, this is common. (It was the same in my own seeing.) Is there any doubt remaining that I is a lie?

Is anything different in everyday life now vs before this dialogue?

Not seeking, but perhaps settling? Settling into truth, observing and just being present with the movement of thoughts, the body, the environment, the labeling. I don’t really feel like I’m seeking anymore, so that is new, but I still feel like there is more work to do if that makes sense.

Yes it makes sense. We call this ‘falling’. The self structure crumbles but the old beliefs and habitual reflexes underlying it are still firing. They will come up one by one to be seen through.

The question is, can you let “there is more work to do” be just another appearance, without it becoming a project?