Let's gooooo

[megacoolname]

Once the thoughts of I that has been masquerading as a sense of I are set aside, is this sense of I alive/found in any physical way, as an actual sensation or mixture of senses?

No it can't be found, there is just seeing, hearing etc...

[graceabounds]

So, what is day to day living like now, with this foundation?

[megacoolname]

So, what is day to day living like now, with this foundation?

the same. the sense of I is still here most of the time, maybe with less grip but still here.

[graceabounds]

What is the difference in direct experience between when it is here and not? Or with more or less ‘grip’?

[megacoolname]

What is the difference in direct experience between when it is here and not? Or with more or less ‘grip’?

I should have said, "the sense of I is still mostly here", it didn't go away, it feels weakened.
I still do the labeling thing, mainly with thoughts.

And even "the sense of I is still mostly here" is really just a thought.
I feel like I can just see slightly between the clouds of thoughts and the sense of I. It's seen how thoughts are akin to dreams, but still they keep coming, along with an hypnotizing sense of I

[graceabounds]

The thoughts don’t need to stop, just not followed. Keep looking in that gap between the clouds. In what is here in the direct experience.

If all of that keeps happening: the thoughts, the I-feeling, the dream etc but none of it is taken personally anymore
what’s left to wake up?

Or has it already happened… just not the way the dream-self expected?

Can the sense of I hypnotize itself?

[megacoolname]

The thoughts don’t need to stop, just not followed.

I think I understand that. By not followed, you mean "not believed in"? As in, seeing them a nothing more than thoughts? That's what the labeling exercise helps me a lot to, but still, most of the time they are kinda automatically believed in.

If all of that keeps happening: the thoughts, the I-feeling, the dream etc but none of it is taken personally anymore
what’s left to wake up?

I guess nothing would be left to wake up

Or has it already happened… just not the way the dream-self expected?

I don't think it has happened (altho that's just a thought), there is still an "I" following the thought as if it was a separate being observing them. And I've to remind myself that thought aren't to be believed in, that they're nothing more than thoughts, including the sense of I.

this is what I'm expecting: "All the illusory ideas and delusive thoughts accumulated up to the present will be exterminated, and when the time comes, internal and external will be spontaneously united. You will know this, but for yourself only, like a dumb man who has had a dream."
especially the "internal and external will be spontaneously united"

Can the sense of I hypnotize itself?

I feel like it's an idea believing in itself. It appears in reality and somehow the reality gets hypnotized/confused/fooled.

[graceabounds]

By not followed, you mean "not believed in"? As in, seeing them a nothing more than thoughts?

That still implies someone deciding to believe or not. :)
Just see that they appear, without invitation, without ownership, and without meaning… until you (thought) assign meaning

there is still an "I" following the thought as if it was a separate being observing them

So that observer, where is it?
What’s it made of?
What exactly is “doing” the observing?

especially the "internal and external will be spontaneously united"

They were never separate, that has been the illusion all along. Now, experientially it may appear to go ‘back and forth’ for a while… seeing through self is just the first step. There are many layers of illusion beyond that and this is one of them. Haven’t there been glimpses of this during this conversation?

And I've to remind myself that thought aren't to be believed in, that they're nothing more than thoughts, including the sense of I.

Yes, this is only thought layers. So what is here without the reminders? Without the one managing? What is effortlessly here?

[megacoolname]

So that observer, where is it?
What’s it made of?
What exactly is “doing” the observing?

it's made of feelings/thoughts, sometime subtle and sneaky, not even thoughts with words but just some background mental activity. I realized that more and more this last few days by being attentive.

They were never separate, that has been the illusion all along. Now, experientially it may appear to go ‘back and forth’ for a while… seeing through self is just the first step. There are many layers of illusion beyond that and this is one of them. Haven’t there been glimpses of this during this conversation?

I had some glimpses but only limited to sounds or items in direct contact with my body. I only had one "full glimpse" years ago.

Yes, this is only thought layers. So what is here without the reminders? Without the one managing? What is effortlessly here?

what is effortlessly here are the 5 senses and their objects. Thoughts and the sense of "I" also come effortlessly, although the sense of I is often linked to varying degrees of effort. Sometimes effort appear, by itself I guess, just like thoughts.

[graceabounds]

it's made of feelings/thoughts, sometime subtle and sneaky, not even thoughts with words but just some background mental activity.

When the observer is made of feelings, do you mean sensations or emotions?

What makes a thought sneaky?

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

Is the background mental activity, the thoughts without words, visual mental images?

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

So continue to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Which type of thought is the 'I' thought when it is present?
Is there a visual mental image of observer?

I had some glimpses but only limited to sounds or items in direct contact with my body. I only had one "full glimpse" years ago.

Did this glimpse (or glimpses) result in a kind of KNOWING that has never really left?

....In other words is it clear that this mirage is not real even though the visual field still shows something there?

Sometimes effort appear, by itself I guess, just like thoughts.

Yes. What is it like to sink into this appearance, for the effort to be unowned?

[megacoolname]

When the observer is made of feelings, do you mean sensations or emotions?

I mean a mental sensation

What makes a thought sneaky?

It can be subtle and in the background. Or just being a vague idea in the mind, such as "I'm walking", "I'm seeing", these "thoughts" are not clearly made of words and they aren't automatically in the spotlight of attention.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

Is the background mental activity, the thoughts without words, visual mental images?

I think there are more types of thoughts. The ones I was talking about were not visual mental images. Maybe I can they that they are "background beliefs"

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

I can't do anything physically with this cup :)

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

there's just a mental image of the cup, and it's real only as a mental image, not physically real.

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied.
However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yes I can see that.
It is the same for the "I", it's made of the same thing, as far as I know.

Which type of thought is the 'I' thought when it is present?
Is there a visual mental image of observer?

It's mostly made of thoughts made of words, there is barely ever a mental image of an observer.

Did this glimpse (or glimpses) result in a kind of KNOWING that has never really left?

Well, it made me knew that it's indeed all a dream and that no one ever existed. But this knowing got kinda ignored after a short while, because the feeling of I is very immersive, so really it's only knowing by the mind and not living it.

....In other words is it clear that this mirage is not real even though the visual field still shows something there?

I think it's clear that the "I" is made of thoughts/imagination, it can't be found anywhere else than in thoughts, in the form of thoughts only.

Yes. What is it like to sink into this appearance, for the effort to be unowned?

It feels owned, sadly xD

[graceabounds]

I mean a mental sensation

What is this? Can you define?

It can be subtle and in the background. Or just being a vague idea in the mind, such as "I'm walking", "I'm seeing", these "thoughts" are not clearly made of words and they aren't automatically in the spotlight of attention.

Would they be sneaky if there wasn’t an I that was explicit or implied?

Without that reference is it direct experience?

It's mostly made of thoughts made of words

Are these words ‘heard’ internally? Is that how they are experienced? Do the words float by as if on a screen?

I think there are more types of thoughts. The ones I was talking about were not visual mental images. Maybe I can they that they are "background beliefs"

Let’s look at this.


We know what it is for a thought to arise. But what is it to believe a thought? What's going on there?
Normally speaking, belief is an attitude we have towards a thought, statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we think or feel about it. Schematically, it's like this:

1 (Thought "A") "The feeling of I is very immersive."

2 (Thought "B") "I feel strongly that A is true."
In this case, the belief about thought "A" is actually thought "B."
This is ironic! When we believe a thought, it's just another thought, with maybe a touch of hope or fear (feelings) that it is true.

Of course, the "believing" thought could take a different form. Instead of the mere statement that "I think A is true," the believing thought could be one or more other thoughts:

3 (Thought "C") "'When someone agrees with 'A', I feel a warm sense of pleasure."

4 (Thought "D") "When someone disagrees with 'A', I get hurt, angry or confused."

5 (Thought "E") ""Because of 'C' and 'D', I realize that I must really believe that "A" is true."

All of these are separate thoughts. Even the feelings and reactions mentioned in "C" and "D" are nothing more than other mental objects, other "thoughts" in a wider sense.
So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really different from the thoughts themselves. They all arise and pass. It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each
other. So belief is a claim never borne out by direct experience.

[megacoolname]

What is this? Can you define?

I fear I can't describe it clearly.

I would say today that it's like a fog made from the sense of I and thoughts, and it creates like a background belief/mental sensation of an observer.

Would they be sneaky if there wasn’t an I that was explicit or implied?

Well, a thought such as "I'm walking" wouldn't be possible without an "I"

Without that reference is it direct experience?

I'm not sure if I understand this question correctly. Would it be direct experience without the reference of "I" in thoughts such as "I'm walking"? If that's the question, then yes, it would be direct experience without the though interfering (interfering between what??)

Are these words ‘heard’ internally? Is that how they are experienced? Do the words float by as if on a screen?

Yes they are heard, and feel like they emanate from me

Normally speaking, belief is an attitude we have towards a thought, statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we think or feel about it.

Yes, most of the time it's about how "I" feel about it, not really something I think.

So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really different from the thoughts themselves. They all arise and pass. It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each

I pondered quite a bit on it, and most of the time I'd say, believing is a sense of belief that comes along with the thought.

[graceabounds]

Yes, this 'fog' is what has been called self all along.
Is a 'background belief/mental sensation' REAL or FANTASY?

a thought such as "I'm walking" wouldn't be possible without an "I"

Yes, the THOUGHT wouldn't be possible without the I but when walking is just happening, directly, is there I?

yes, it would be direct experience without the though interfering (interfering between what??)

Keep looking here. This is a very good question.

You might think: “It interferes between me and the experience.”
But now look: Where is the me? And where is the experience?
Aren’t both just thoughts???

There’s walking.
Then comes: “I’m walking.”
And with it, the sense: “I am having an experience.”

But really...
There’s just walking.
THEN thought splits it into two:
An experiencer (“me”)
An experience (“walking”)

That split is the illusion. Thought inserts a fake division where there’s actually just THIS which is undivided and immediate

Yes they are heard, and feel like they emanate from me

What is this 'feeling' actually? Please describe it directly. Where is it?
What’s its shape? Does it do anything?
...Does it control the next word?

believing is a sense of belief that comes along with the thought.

What is “a sense of belief”?
Is it a thought about a thought? A tightening? A sense of rightness?

Can it be seen that belief is just another thought-sensation package?

[megacoolname]

Is a 'background belief/mental sensation' REAL or FANTASY?

It's something of the mind, maybe it's a fantasy to believe in it, but they're real as thoughts

Yes, the THOUGHT wouldn't be possible without the I but when walking is just happening, directly, is there I?

Most of the time there is only walking with no "I", automatically walking. Then at some moments the "I" comes with thoughts such as "I'm walking", "I've to turn right/left" etc...

You might think: “It interferes between me and the experience.”
But now look: Where is the me? And where is the experience?
Aren’t both just thoughts???

Yes, the concepts of "me" and "there's an experience" are thoughts. like super-impositions made of thoughts? but still these thoughts exist as thoughts. And they're recurrent thoughts.

What is this 'feeling' actually? Please describe it directly. Where is it?
What’s its shape? Does it do anything?
...Does it control the next word?

First the thoughts come, and then the feeling that they are mine/emanate from me arrive.
With more attention and calm, the feeling is diminished.
This feeling isn't made of words, visuals, or physical sensations. I'm not sure how to properly describe it.
It's in the mind. The only thing it does is appearing and giving the feeling of "emanating from me". Maybe it also adds some fogginess to the mind.

What is “a sense of belief”?
Is it a thought about a thought? A tightening? A sense of rightness?

It's a feeling, akin to the one I described just above. It's a feeling about a thought. Not a tightening. Surely it can sometime have a sense of rightness.
Again, it's hard for me to really describe these kind of things

Can it be seen that belief is just another thought-sensation package?

I think I see what you mean, I could label it as a "mental something"/"thought"