Looking for a guide

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Wow, I love how you’re walking through all of this with so much honesty. It’s not always easy when the shifts aren’t loud or dramatic — but your reflections are full of subtle insight and that’s where the real stuff lives.

No effort seems to be the pointer I keep returning to.

Yes. “No effort” keeps reappearing because it’s pointing you back to what was never missing. Not a tool to get somewhere, a tool to be constantly aware of DE— but a glimpse that there isn’t somewhere else to get to. The whole scaffolding of “holding this moment” falls apart in that light. And what’s left?
Just sound. Just warmth. Just breathing. Nothing more. Just THIS / what is

I think it just appears. Pretty sure I’m aware of it, whether or not I describe it.

Awareness comes before language and cognition and concepts. It’s the raw data before we compulsively explain it.

Even the labels sound, colour (raw data of discrete things )— those are already after-the-fact. They’re concepts carved out of immediacy. Descriptions added to what never needed describing.
Before naming, before knowing, before dividing… there is only this.
Not “this sound” or “this colour” — just this.
Can you find what is not this?
Can anything be ever “experienced” apart from this — without referring to thought?
There is ALWAYS only this without the thought. So in this context what is there to be aware of/point the torch to? Whatever you are aware of is a story, not reality, an approximation at most.
How is that different from aliveness/presence? Notice that these are also abstractions/labels pointing to just this
Notice that even “awareness of this” is a redundancy. Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, being aware of it, any visible borders of separation? If they are one and the same then awareness is redundant/ adding additional and unnecessary meaning/qualities to just this. There’s not awareness and this. There’s no one being aware. There’s only… this right now/right here. No raw data vs labels - just indescribable, indivisible this (the wax). Always the same just this. The shapes/forms/raw data (of the wax) are just subtle or not so subtle concepts.
Not this and something.
Not this from a distance.
Just…
this.

Maybe the tension here — the “weird frustration” — is that the mind wants to nail it down. It wants to know what awareness is, how to relate to it, how to be clear. But in DE, there’s no “how.” Awareness isn’t something to understand — it’s just another word/abstraction showing up inside what’s already fully happening.
So try this (and see what shifts):
Instead of asking “What is awareness?”
Ask: What’s left if there’s no one being aware?
Let the question hang in the body.

The belief is a little bit seen through, but hasn’t quite fallen.

That’s okay. Let it unravel in its own time — these old strategies aren’t just thoughts, they’re imprints. And sometimes the body needs to test safety a few times before it releases its grip.
And I love this image:
“She can keep looking down in order to make herself nervous and remember to grip the wall strongly, or she can just climb and trust herself.”
Yes. Vigilance says: “Look down. Stay scared. Stay alert.”
But clarity says: “You’re already climbing. You always have been.”
Nothing needs to be added. You’re already here.

This is a much smaller remnant that’s remaining.

Exactly. These patterns loop through layers — not because they’re still true, but because they’re still stored. What’s beautiful is that you can now see them as patterns. You don’t have to become them. That’s already freedom — even when it doesn’t feel dramatic.
Let the body experiment. Let the vigilance soften on its own timeline. You’re not behind. You’re not missing anything. You’re right here, at the edge of release.
And you don’t need to drop anything — just let it drop when it’s ready.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for this. I feel like I'm really chipping away at awareness. Every time I read your message, I understand a different thing in a different way and it continues to unfold. :)

Yes. “No effort” keeps reappearing because it’s pointing you back to what was never missing. Not a tool to get somewhere, a tool to be constantly aware of DE— but a glimpse that there isn’t somewhere else to get to. The whole scaffolding of “holding this moment” falls apart in that light. And what’s left?

It’s peaceful. Dropping into DE is peaceful, but also just dropping DE is peaceful.

I think what’s left is honestly (annoyingly) awareness. I can’t say “no effort” to myself without then being aware of whatever is happening. Saying “no effort” seems to cause the awareness layer to pop up.

Can you find what is not this?
Can anything be ever “experienced” apart from this — without referring to thought?

I reflected on this for quite a white today, and this idea seemed to open up over time. Everything is just this.

There is ALWAYS only this without the thought. So in this context what is there to be aware of/point the torch to? Whatever you are aware of is a story, not reality, an approximation at most.

Awareness is a story. Awareness is the effort of trying to be self-aware, to be aware of thoughts, motivations, and feelings instead of numb. Awareness can be a tool, but now it has become a label that gets in the way. I feel myself quietly thinking about being aware of myself, my surroundings, my mind, in an effort to not drift absent mindedly. I learned to meditate by getting in the habit of being aware. It’s really hard to let go. Awareness can be an anchor.

How can awareness be separate from experience? That is truly imaginary, wow, I think that just hit. There is just this. (<-- I wrote that earlier today and now I’ve lost it again and don’t really know what i meant).

And any division in THIS is just a thought.

How is that different from aliveness/presence?

I think there’s something about not understanding the difference between being unaware and being caught up in aliveness. I think I’m concerned that if I drop awareness I will just be unaware…

I think I also know that’s not true and know the difference between being stuck in my mind versus flowing in direct experience. When I do reach flow, something kicks in to “manage” it and really encourages me to be aware so I don’t screw it up. Or maybe so I mentally clock it on my imaginary list of “good things I did today.” Some of the energy of the flow is robbed to make this mental trick happen.

what is it that is separate from what is, being aware of it, any visible borders of separation? I

I like this - the idea that awareness is an attempt to separate a bit of what is and make it into a label and a narration. It’s not separate, but it does rob some of the energy of the moment to make the label.

What’s left if there’s no one being aware?

It gets really quiet. I meditated for a few minutes. Usually, about 10 seconds after I start, “awareness” shows up and starts taking notes in a somewhat noisy manner. She evaluates the meditation and frequently interrupts to set goals or announce progress or give suggestions. I asked her to step back, and immediately felt very, very sad. And then meditated much more peacefully. There was no impatience, progress reports, or re-deciding what would be focused on. It was restful and alive.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
This is a beautifully raw and insightful exploration — thank you for sharing it so honestly.
There’s something deeply profound emerging here:

Dropping into DE is peaceful, but also just dropping DE is peaceful.

Yes. Even the idea of DE — like awareness — can sneak in as another project to manage. And when even that drops? What’s left isn’t less… it’s freer.

Awareness is a story. Awareness is the effort of trying to be self-aware... Awareness can be an anchor.

I think there’s something about not understanding the difference between being unaware and being caught up in aliveness. I think I’m concerned that if I drop awareness I will just be unaware…

Yes — awareness as a doing is another layer of managing. Another way the system tries to stay safe, stay in control, or not drift. That is why it is often used in teachings as a stepping stone. Something to make perceptions change easier. But even that has to be seen eventually as just a tool, not reality.
Check:
Is awareness something you do — or just another appearance( i.e. thought) within what already is?
If “awareness” drops… does anything actually disappear? Or does everything simply remain — without being held?
You don’t lose presence when awareness drops. What drops is the monitoring. The self-checking. The mental spotlight.
Is it actually possible to be unaware?
Can you ever not be? Can there be an experience of “unawareness”?
Even “being unaware” is something that’s noticed after the fact — which means it was already seen. Missed "stuff" is just a story. There is a difference between what is seen and what is commented on. Just because there is no comment doesn’t mean it wasn’t experienced. Experienced is not synonymous with narrated .
The belief that something was “missed” arises only after the fact, as commentary. But experience doesn’t require commentary to exist. It’s not dependent on the narrator to validate it.
There’s no such thing as being “unaware” — there’s just the absence of narrative. The light doesn’t go off just because no one is describing the room. Seeing still happens without saying “I see.” Sound still registers without the thought “I’m hearing.” Touch still tingles without a mental post-it saying “touch.” You can’t step outside of this — there’s no backstage to miss the play from. What’s missed is only the story about the moment, not the moment itself.
A simple question you can return to when doubt arises:
Can experience be lost if it was never separate from what is?
Right now… are you doing awareness?
Can you find a moment that isn’t already happening — without needing to be watched?
Even a daydream, even being “lost in thought,” is still happening in this.
There’s never an actual gap. Only the idea of a gap — noticed afterward.
So, when the view is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen - even seeing nothing (i.e blackness)?

And you saw this so clearly here:

I meditated... I asked her [awareness] to step back, and immediately felt very, very sad. And then meditated much more peacefully.

That sadness? That was the body's memory of effort, control, and vigilance. Maybe even a part of you that learned: “if I’m not aware, I’m not safe.”
And yet — when she stepped aside… there was rest. Peace. Aliveness.

How can awareness be separate from experience? That is truly imaginary…

That’s it. Even “I am aware” splits the moment.
Creates an observer. A gap. A manager.
But no one is holding this. No one needs to. It’s not drifting. It’s not lost. It’s just this.

You Might Gently Ask:
If I let “awareness” go completely… is anything actually lost?
What happens if I don’t track this moment?
What if the effort to hold presence is the only thing keeping me from fully living it?
“I must stay aware so I don’t drift.” Drift into what?

Let “no effort” be a falling into life — not a trying to stay awake.
Let awareness become transparent — not absent, but unclaimed.
Let the energy flow back into life itself — instead of into the narration of life.
There’s nothing to hold.
There’s only this.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

This has been a really fruitful investigation as of late. I’m noticing that as awareness drops, the parts of awareness (monitoring, suggesting, making notes for later) still happen but not nearly so strongly and they feel less like “me” and more like reflexes. They’re not obtrusive.

Is awareness something you do — or just another appearance( i.e. thought) within what already is?
If “awareness” drops… does anything actually disappear? Or does everything simply remain — without being held?

It’s so easy to make awareness a habitual activity. It’s just a thought or a label on top of what is. When dropping it, nothing disappears, and everything remains.

I’m sensing so many stories coming up about why awareness is important to hang onto - how I can’t trust myself if I’m not being aware, and how I won’t be able to hang onto the moment if I drop awareness. Those are such clearly made up stories and don’t even make sense.

You don’t lose presence when awareness drops. What drops is the monitoring. The self-checking. The mental spotlight.
Is it actually possible to be unaware?
Can you ever not be? Can there be an experience of “unawareness”?

Are presence and DE the same?

And no, it’s not possible to be unaware. There’s a lack of comments, but awareness is still there.

Seeing still happens without saying “I see.” ...
Can experience be lost if it was never separate from what is?
Right now… are you doing awareness?
Can you find a moment that isn’t already happening — without needing to be watched?

No. Although it seems that all experience is lost as it flows through time. There’s no keeping experience anyways. I’m not “doing awareness” I’m looking, experiencing, and explaining myself as best I can.

can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen - even seeing nothing (i.e blackness)?

Nope. Seeing sees. The narration is optional.

If I let “awareness” go completely… is anything actually lost?
What happens if I don’t track this moment?
What if the effort to hold presence is the only thing keeping me from fully living it?
“I must stay aware so I don’t drift.” Drift into what?

If awareness is let go of, the effort is lost.

I’m not sure about “let go of completely” - I can let go, but parts of it still seem to stick around, like reflexes.

The usefulness of tracking this moment was already a delusion, so if I don’t track it, it just unfolds.

What if the effort of holding presence is the only thing keeping me from fully loving it? Well said, lol. That is exactly the experience.

The drifting - that was in reference to awareness feeling like an anchor; something to hold onto so I would know where I was. Letting go of that felt scary and disorienting and like I’d lose things (self-awareness, memories, the ability to monitor and adjust my actions appropriately, etc). I just don’t think that’s true anymore. I don’t think I ever had any of those things that the anchor gave me, and it took a lot of effort to hold on to.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Beautiful. Truly.
What’s unfolding here is the direct seeing that awareness was never doing the holding. The idea of awareness — the imagined manager — was the one taking credit for what was already moving perfectly well on its own.
And now that imagined anchor is being gently set down… and nothing is lost.
That fear of drifting or losing track of yourself? Just another echo of control strategies from the past. The same vigilance that once tried to keep you safe — now no longer needed.

I’m noticing that as awareness drops, the parts of awareness (monitoring, suggesting, making notes for later) still happen but not nearly so strongly and they feel less like “me” and more like reflexes. They’re not obtrusive.

Yes — these patterns may still arise. That’s not a problem. Thoughts don’t need to disappear.
The shift is that they’re no longer owned. They’re no longer you/awareness doing them.
They move like reflexes — like clouds passing. No need to identify with them, manage them, or push them away. They're not obtrusive because they’re not personal. LOOK:
Who do these thoughts belong to — if they just arise and dissolve on their own?
Let them arise as they do… and watch how unnecessary the identification becomes.

I don’t think I ever had any of those things that the anchor gave me, and it took a lot of effort to hold on to.
Yes. Well seen!

So...
What moves, when there’s no one steering?
Let that question hang.
Let it answer itself — in experience.

Are presence and DE the same?

That’s a great question — and one worth feeling into, rather than answering too quickly.
Look now.
Before the thought “this is presence,”
Before the thought “this is direct experience”…
What’s actually here?
Not the word, not the label — but the living, immediate, uncategorized happening.
Is presence something extra on top of this moment — or is it just this, before any naming?
Is DE something you do… or just what’s already happening, effortlessly?
Can presence be separate from experience? Can experience happen outside of now?

“Presence” and “DE” are both just pointers — concepts pointing to what cannot be captured in a concept.
But when the naming drops, there’s just this. And it’s not two.
...
Let’s have a look at time and memories as promised…
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Furthermore, almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought. Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for the questions! Exciting to move on to some new territory! (And oops - meant to post this yesterday but it looks like it didn't post all the way... oh well...)
I'm out of town tomorrow (Monday) so unfortunately, probably can't reply until Tuesday. Hope you're doing well!

Who do these thoughts belong to — if they just arise and dissolve on their own?

They just arise and dissolve. They’re type of thoughts that “I” habitually take credit for, so it’s easy to slip back into credit-taking mode, but it’s clear that the thoughts will predictably happen independently of credit-taking.

What moves, when there’s no one steering?

The context of this question was of letting go of an anchor - the illusion of control. Continuing with that metaphor, the ocean is moving. The tides, the waves, the winds. I move with it, but don’t control any part of it, and the anchor didn’t bring any stillness or control either - just effort.

Before the thought “this is presence,”
Before the thought “this is direct experience”…
What’s actually here?

I think I start to slip into a state of presence / direct experience just before the thought comes up and takes credit for the shift.

Before the shift happens there is also direct experience but one that feels chaotic, like a laser light show. There might be a lot of thoughts, a lot of sensations, and a lot jumping focus from one thing to another. When the shift happens, it’s like the lights stop moving and flashing and changing colour all the time and there’s stillness with more peaceful illumination. Both happen in the same room but the experience is really different.

I think I get a little confused sometimes in the “everything just is” talk, and how being in the chaos of a river versus chilling in a stream are essentially the same thing - you’re just in it, both times. So what’s the difference between awakening and not awakening? Having awareness, not having awareness, and seeing through awareness? Is everyone enlightened and they just don’t know it? I’m having difficulty articulating my question, but sometimes these questions seem to point the opposite direction of where I thought I was heading. Like, before being aware of DE or presence, it felt chaotic and I believed all of my thoughts and they tended towards being quite dark. Being present has been really helpful for that. Now it seems like the pointing is going towards “not being present is presence too.” Does any of that make sense?

Is presence something extra on top of this moment — or is it just this, before any naming?
Is DE something you do… or just what’s already happening, effortlessly?
Can presence be separate from experience? Can experience happen outside of now?

I think presence is actually losing something. Presence comes first, and then thought, judgement, opinion. Presence is going back and reconnecting with the feeling of presence is grounding and loosens the hold of thoughts, or begins to expose them as not inherent to the moment.

So yes, DE is happening effortlessly and isn’t an effort or a choice. I think maybe there’s a remembering, though? It doesn’t feel like a choice - the mind shifts on its own - but there is a distinct feeling of setting an intention to land in that place, or reminding myself of the importance of checking in with it. When we first started talking, I set a clear intention for myself to notice DE. When there’s a pause in my thoughts, i find myself turning towards it.

Presence can’t be separate from experience because both are constantly happening. And experience is always now. Even the experience of remembering something is happening in the present.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

What these questions all seem to be pointing at is that time exists only in thought and only as a concept. It cannot be directly experienced. The past exists in thought impressions and memory, but these are not actual ways of holding the past and certainly not the same as experiencing a past. One event following another is an assumption; there’s no direct experience of it. We can’t measure the speed of the present in DE because only concepts can measure anything. Any definition of “a moment” or “now” requires concepts in order to define it and concepts in order to define its boundaries. “The past” is experienced as a collection of thoughts with a variety of emotional responses to it and time cannot be directly experienced.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Memory is thoughts, made of images, sounds, smells, and emotional snapshots. These come together to create stories and narratives and rationales and identities. Memories appear according to conditions and conditioning - things in DE can trigger a memory, or habits of mind can replay the same memories over and over. Memories that have an element of un-peace (dis-peace?) seem to get more easily triggered than completely peaceful ones.

A memory thought is a general thought about the past. I don’t think there’s much difference, besides the time stamp.

We don’t really know that a memory refers to something that has happened. Memories and dreams muddle together all the time, and the mind’s ongoing effort to make sense of the world means that memories are edited so that a more cohesive narrative can emerge.

In normal, non-emotionally charged memories, like about what I did at work last week, I know I didn’t imagine it because it has a little mental tag saying “real” and it was a bit boring so I trust I didn’t imagine it. There’s a sort of body memory too - where I was sitting, the physical feeling I got while talking to various people about various things, the feeling of wet socks and sitting under fluorescent lights. There’s sort of an echo in the body that I can tap into. When I think about the dream I had last night, I don’t sense the body echo. There’s no physical sense of how it felt to be in the space I was in the dream.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Future thoughts are just thoughts utilizing concepts like “later” or “tomorrow.”

These thoughts appear when decisions or plans are being made or activities are changing.

I don’t think there's really a difference between general thoughts and future thoughts. A present thought might have more of a basis in DE (for example, a thought of hunger might come from a bodily cue), but I don’t see a difference.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

I’m thinking about memory and the “body echo” I mentioned earlier. The future has a predictive body echo, particularly for routine tasks (arriving at work, getting my stuff, etc.) If I think of a slight change - my next class, versus my current one - that predictive energy feels slightly different - there’s more guesswork going on.

I think for mundane topics - last week at work versus next week at work - I’m not sensing a real difference. Other past/future topics might have differences in emotional valence, but I don’t think that’s what you’re asking. I can’t see a difference here.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Really loving where this has been going lately. A lot is loosening — especially around "awareness" and time.

They just arise and dissolve. They’re type of thoughts that “I” habitually take credit for, so it’s easy to slip back into credit-taking mode, but it’s clear that the thoughts will predictably happen independently of credit-taking.

So if “I” is just a word in language/ a concept, how can a concept take credit? Can a thought think itself? Who’s owning what?
Can an illusion do things?

Continuing with that metaphor, the ocean is moving. The tides, the waves, the winds. I move with it, but don’t control any part of it, and the anchor didn’t bring any stillness or control either - just effort.

Using your metaphor… Have a look! Is there an entity that moves with the ocean? OR there is only the ocean – the tides, the waves, the winds – happening to no one?

Presence can’t be separate from experience because both are constantly happening.

Let’s look a little deeper.
Is presence something added to experience… or just another word for what’s already happening, before any naming?
Similarly with experience… This is a loaded word as it presupposes an experiencer/presence. But look – is there one? Awareness/Presence/witness/being these are just concepts layered on top of what is happening. The irony is that there is also nothing happening without the concepts/story. The labelling comes after.

Instead of endlessly reaching for ideas, concepts and explanations, just let it all go, and see. Just see what is here now silently, without words. Thoughts are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple.
Just notice what is left when you stop thinking about it.
If you drop the words “presence”/”experience” entirely — without replacing them — what’s actually here? Just whatever is happening? Do you need presence for this to be here silently? If yes, how do you know that? Or that is an assumption?

Revisit the “blackness” exercise… Do you find any evidence for anything besides the seen (i.e. the blackness)? Any eyes / Lanie / any entity at all in any shape or form witnessing/being present?
Can you find anything that isn’t already happening — before the thought?

It doesn’t feel like a choice - the mind shifts on its own - but there is a distinct feeling of setting an intention to land in that place, or reminding myself of the importance of checking in with it. When we first started talking, I set a clear intention for myself to notice DE. When there’s a pause in my thoughts, i find myself turning towards it.

So here’s a question:
Who or what is “turning” toward direct experience? Is there a separate one apart from DE who “remembers” or “intends” to land there?
And if DE/this is all there is, where else could you land?
What if the idea of “noticing” DE is itself another movement of mind — creating the illusion of distance from it?
Can this moment be missed — without thought saying it was?
Is there ever an experience outside of this?
Furthermore…
Does intention appear before what is happening — or after?
Try this:
Sit with an impulse — maybe the intention to move your hand, take a breath, or shift your attention.
Can you actually find the intention before the movement or shift… or does it arise with or after the happening?
Is it really causing anything — or is it simply describing what’s already unfolding?

Here is a fun video for you:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

If everything is already happening… what would intention be “for”?
Is intention just another thought about what is — a mental commentary arriving milliseconds later, claiming authorship?
Like the closing credits trying to take credit for the movie that already played?
So ask in real-time:
Did I intend this… or is that just a thought arising after the fact?
This simple looking can begin to unravel the deeply held sense of being a “doer.” What remains, without that?
Just this — already unfolding. No one doing it. Nothing left to manage.

I think I get a little confused sometimes in the “everything just is” talk, and how being in the chaos of a river versus chilling in a stream are essentially the same thing - you’re just in it, both times. So what’s the difference between awakening and not awakening? Having awareness, not having awareness, and seeing through awareness? Is everyone enlightened and they just don’t know it? I’m having difficulty articulating my question, but sometimes these questions seem to point the opposite direction of where I thought I was heading. Like, before being aware of DE or presence, it felt chaotic and I believed all of my thoughts and they tended towards being quite dark. Being present has been really helpful for that. Now it seems like the pointing is going towards “not being present is presence too.” Does any of that make sense?

I think I gave you the Mahamudra koan, but just to remind you:
Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

Everything is just THIS, whether it’s chaos or calm. This pointing is radical not because it elevates the calm above the chaos — but because it points out that both are equal expressions of what is, with no outside self doing or controlling either. It’s all about the story that goes along – the soundtrack.
But here’s the twist:
What makes one feel like "awakening" and the other not?
Usually, it’s the presence or absence of resistance — not the content.
This is all about thought self-organisation. Thoughts are like matching puzzle pieces. They describe/give meaning to what is (happening). Spontaneous "actions" are happening, and so is the thought story (self-organising around the experience). At some point they might self-organise around themselves (i.e. “getting caught/believing thoughts”). Noticing/labelling of DE happens or noticing of thought content happens – all by itself. It is just THIS, and THIS right now could be a thought arising with content ABOUT wanting more, deepening the experience, fireworks and trumpets, the whole shebang :)

Who/what can be enlightened? Thoughts?
Who is everyone? Are there others in DE?
Is anything outside of what is — even distraction, even forgetting?

“Awakening” isn’t about having better experiences — it’s about not mistaking the commentary for reality anymore – thoughts self-organising around the DE (not weaving stories/fairy tales)
So what is “not being present is presence too” really pointing to?
It’s not saying “zoning out” is awakening. It’s pointing out: Even the thought “I am not present” appears within what is. Even distraction arises in this. There’s never actually a departure from this moment — only the idea of one.

The whole awareness vs. presence vs. awakening?
Let’s simplify:
Awareness → Often a conceptual label placed on experience. A mental watcher.
Presence / DE → Just this — before commentary. Sounds, sensations, movement — happening effortlessly.
Awakening → Not a “state” but the falling away of the belief in separation, including the one who is “trying to be present.” – thoughts self-organising to be more efficient.

Can this moment be anything other than what it is?
Is confusion arising outside of what is — or within it, like a ripple on still water?
That’s the return — not to a better “you,” but to what never left.

There’s sort of an echo in the body that I can tap into.

Beautiful. Let’s explore:
Where is that echo being experienced?
Is the sensation of echo in the body — or is it the label “echo” being added to present sensation?
Does the body echo prove the past… or is it simply something appearing now?
The memory isn’t “retrieving the past” — it’s a present appearance labelled “past.”

When I think about the dream I had last night, I don’t sense the body echo.

Great. So let’s dig in:
When recalling the dream, is there any actual difference in the experience of the dream-thought and the memory-thought — other than a story about what’s “real”?
Is the certainty that “this happened” vs. “this didn’t” coming from direct experience — or from a mental tag, a judgment, a sense of familiarity?
Can you find any objective quality in experience that proves which is “real” and which is imagined?

If memory is now… and dream is now… and the echo is now…
Can anything ever appear outside of now?
What is this made of — right now — without labelling it ‘memory’ or ‘dream’?
Strip away the interpretation. What’s actually left?
Just sensation… image… thought… happening here.
All distinctions dissolve. What remains is THIS — just this — in all its mysterious fullness.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for these questions! Something seemed to slide around in my brain a bit… the “I” is off on a coffee break or something…

So if “I” is just a word in language/ a concept, how can a concept take credit? Can a thought think itself? Who’s owning what?
Can an illusion do things?

Looking and seeing is happening just happening and concepts can’t take credit; the taking credit is an illusion.

Is there an entity that moves with the ocean? OR there is only the ocean – the tides, the waves, the winds – happening to no one?

This question resonated with me and felt really scary for some reason. I think something slipped away, but it might have also just hidden and i can’t find it.

There’s no one in the ocean anymore.

Is presence something added to experience… or just another word for what’s already happening, before any naming?
Similarly with experience… This is a loaded word as it presupposes an experiencer/presence. But look – is there one?

I think it can be both, but I’m seeing a clearer distinction now. Presence / experience is just there, regardless. BUt there’s also the possibility of throwing the concept of presence/experience on top of what is just actual presence/experience. I think I was using it as a more enlightened term for awareness, but it’s not. It’s the ocean.

If you drop the words “presence”/”experience” entirely — without replacing them — what’s actually here? Just whatever is happening? Do you need presence for this to be here silently? If yes, how do you know that? Or that is an assumption?

It’s probably an assumption. I keep coming back to my being in the ocean metaphor. Is it necessary for a body to be in the ocean or is the ocean just ocean-ing? No experiencer is necessary for the ocean to be.

is presence something I "pick up" when i remember to?

Nope.

Revisit the “blackness” exercise… Do you find any evidence for anything besides the seen (i.e. the blackness)? Any eyes / Lanie / any entity at all in any shape or form witnessing/being present?
Can you find anything that isn’t already happening — before the thought?

Weirdly, no.

Even thinking about things with my eyes closed - like my relationship with my mom, for example - feels sort of universal and not personal. There’s still all the love and the stories and all of that but it feels hypothetical at this moment in an odd way and like the stories of what’s complicated and what’s good are unimportant mush. I don’t feel a witnesser and things that used to be of interest or concern feel like they’ve lost their gravitational pull on my mind.

Who or what is “turning” toward direct experience? Is there a separate one apart from DE who “remembers” or “intends” to land there?
And if DE/this is all there is, where else could you land?
What if the idea of “noticing” DE is itself another movement of mind — creating the illusion of distance from it?
Can this moment be missed — without thought saying it was?
Is there ever an experience outside of this?

I like what you said about how noticing DE is another movement of mind, creating the illusion of distance. There’s such a dichotomy formed when you say “I need to pay attention to X.”

You asked if DE is all there is, where else could you land - for me it’s being lost in thoughts that I’m not even paying attention to. So in that sense, I think the moment can be missed, but maybe I’m creating a false dichotomy between being lost in fantasy and the “real” world.

Does intention appear before what is happening — or after?

I often set intentions before I meditate or go for a walk. I think they function to prime the mind in that direction. Listening to dharma teachings or any kind of topic influences thoughts; influenced thoughts are more likely to tend towards certain directions and i think intentions are part of that.

Sit with an impulse — maybe the intention to move your hand, take a breath, or shift your attention.
Can you actually find the intention before the movement or shift… or does it arise with or after the happening?
Is it really causing anything — or is it simply describing what’s already unfolding?

I think we might be using the word intention differently. :)

I would do this and set an intention to move my finger at some time in the next few seconds, and it’s really apparent to me that the finger moves before I hear my brain say “move.” So (for me) the order is intention → movement → brain claims to have made a decision that was second in the order, not third.

If everything is already happening… what would intention be “for”?
Is intention just another thought about what is — a mental commentary arriving milliseconds later, claiming authorship?
Like the closing credits trying to take credit for the movie that already played?

Intentions come first, and well before any decisions to take action (in Canada). :) It’s more like emotionally preparing yourself to consider beginning a task. Or before going for a walk, reminding yourself to be mindful of the sounds while you’re walking.

So ask in real-time:
Did I intend this… or is that just a thought arising after the fact?
This simple looking can begin to unravel the deeply held sense of being a “doer.” What remains, without that?

I think this is clear for me.

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

I think both are just in aliveness.

What makes one feel like "awakening" and the other not?

I used to feel really trapped by my thoughts and like I had to fix ALL my thoughts to be free and I couldn’t feel out how to do that and it was incredibly constraining. I like your comment about resistance. I’ve heard that so many times but am considering it more deeply right now.

I think what you’re saying here is that there’s noticing that is automatic, and it doesn’t matter whether the noticing is DE or thought related.

Who/what can be enlightened? Thoughts?
Who is everyone? Are there others in DE?
Is anything outside of what is — even distraction, even forgetting?

I don’t think anyone can be enlightened and there really aren’t others in DE - just experiences in the soup of what is here right now.

Distraction and forgetting are not outside of what is. I think there’s sort of a stigma against these things and an internal belief that they are bad.

So what is “not being present is presence too” really pointing to?

I think this is another definition of non-duality - there’s not two things, presence and absence, there’s only one thing and that’s this.

Can this moment be anything other than what it is?
Is confusion arising outside of what is — or within it, like a ripple on still water?

I like the definition of awakening being losing the belief of separation and the striving to be present. Losing that resistance to what is.

So yes, this moment is what it is, including its confusions.

Where is that echo being experienced?
Is the sensation of echo in the body — or is it the label “echo” being added to present sensation?
Does the body echo prove the past… or is it simply something appearing now?

You’re right; the body echo is being added now to “prove” the past.

When recalling the dream, is there any actual difference in the experience of the dream-thought and the memory-thought — other than a story about what’s “real”?
Is the certainty that “this happened” vs. “this didn’t” coming from direct experience — or from a mental tag, a judgment, a sense of familiarity?
Can you find any objective quality in experience that proves which is “real” and which is imagined?

I don’t think so. You’re right; there’s really no difference and it is like there’s a tag that says “imaginary” on the dream that alters the quality and style of the thoughts about the dream.

Can anything ever appear outside of now?
What is this made of — right now — without labelling it ‘memory’ or ‘dream’?
Strip away the interpretation. What’s actually left?

Nothing is outside of now.

Dreams and memories are made of thoughts that are given labels and judgements, but they are just imaginary. Without interpretation, there is nothing there. There’s no DE; just flickering imagery that very clearly changes every time I look. Just stories.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Something seemed to slide around in my brain a bit… the “I” is off on a coffee break or something…

Ha! That coffee break might turn into early retirement. Wondreful!!

Presence / experience is just there, regardless. But there’s also the possibility of throwing the concept of presence/experience on top of what is just actual presence/experience.

Yes — this is a key distinction. Presence isn’t something to remember, return to, or cultivate. It’s not a state or a quality added on top of what’s happening — it’s simply the word we use (sometimes) for what is always already the case.
What’s being seen so clearly is that even “presence,” when held as a goal or an aim, can sneakily become just another thought, another conceptual overlay. And that conceptual layer (like the word “awareness”) can begin to feel like a filter between “me” and “this” — reinforcing the very separation it was meant to transcend.
Is presence something that comes and goes — or is it only the label that arises and fades?
Can this moment ever not be what it is, even if it includes confusion or contraction (“lack of presence”)?
Without the thought “I am present” or “I need to return to presence”… what’s here?
If no thought ever claimed experience, would anything be missing?
There’s no need to hold or manage this moment. It doesn’t need you to make it be.
Look again:
Is there anything here that is not the senses? Those would be physical, but there are also sensations when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto an image of the body). The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of presence. The feeling of presence is a plethora of sensations happening in quick succession, making it seem like and feel like present - subtle sensations like expansiveness, aliveness (heartbeat, light breathing, etc). Without the label presence/aliveness/expansiveness, do you notice that these are also sensations (maybe subtle but still…)?

It's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought.

So (for me) the order is intention → movement → brain claims to have made a decision that was second in the order, not third.

Is intention something that precedes and controls experience, or is it part of the unfolding itself? When you sit quietly and notice an intention arise… was there a “you” there before the intention, generating it? Or does it appear just like any other thought — spontaneously, unbidden, un-owned?
Can a concept initiate action? Or is it a narrative that arrives afterward, claiming authorship? (Did you watch the vimeo – that experiment has been done by many researchers).
Just because subtle sensations have been labelled “intention” does not mean that a thought can actually initiate actions :)

Don’t forget that even thought, sensation, colour… are just concepts/labels for a seamless inseparable this. Cause and effect are nothing more than a story post factum about things influencing each other.

And about “missing the moment” — what if that, too, is a story told by thought? A commentary that imagines a better version of now, somewhere else. Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state (presence). A moment is just a moment happening right now. Wishing for this moment to be different is just that - a want/ a desire. The shoulds and should nots, the wants and don’t wants— the musts, needs, and other mind weeds - these thoughts have a pull, and once they arrive they have the power to drag one into the story and— puff! The peace is lost.

I often set intentions before I meditate or go for a walk. I think they function to prime the mind in that direction. Listening to dharma teachings or any kind of topic influences thoughts; influenced thoughts are more likely to tend towards certain directions and i think intentions are part of that.

How is then setting intentions different that the thought virus “LOOK” that I introduced?
Also are you in charge of thinking when you are setting intentions?? Are you the thinker of these intentions?
If no doer is needed, then what is the purpose of “intending”? It is just another appearance — not a requirement, not a controller, not a separate agent.
It’s just a thought self-organising in a different story – a story about noticing DE. But does that make “intentions” any different than any other thought? Does intention have more super powers than any other regular thought (i.e. to conditionally describe what is already happening)? Can intentions see, hear, feel,…, do? Do they arise in a previous NOW than this NOW? (hint time is a story) Have a fresh look! See that even intentions are a conditioned or a new way of describing what is ALREADY happening.

I think this is another definition of non-duality — there’s not two things, presence and absence, there’s only one thing and that’s this.

Exactly. Nothing is outside of now — not confusion, not clarity, not dreams, not memory, not intention, not forgetting. Everything arises as now — with no boundary around it, no frame separating “this” from “that.”
Here’s something else to gently explore:
What is this moment, before naming it?
If presence isn’t a state you need to achieve — what’s left to attain?

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

There seems to be a pattern emerging… I see something or understand something, it slips out of view and this rush of frustration comes up. I think that’s where things are again today.

Is presence something that comes and goes — or is it only the label that arises and fades?
Can this moment ever not be what it is, even if it includes confusion or contraction (“lack of presence”)?
Without the thought “I am present” or “I need to return to presence”… what’s here?
If no thought ever claimed experience, would anything be missing?

Presence is a label and is always here.

Returning to presence, I think, is an activity or state that the mind is identifying with. “I” like to do this because that’s what “I” do, therefore, “I” exist. There is a lot of identity in habit!

And of course, unclaimed experience wouldn’t be any different.

But… what’s the point of pursuing this seeing if everything is exactly the same for “me”? Why the looking for the lack of change? I keep getting hung up on this question, even though I also have the answer. For some reason I can only ever see the question OR the answer; never both.

The answer: the looking is to loosen and remove the hooks I have on reality so it can be without reaction or resistance. Pain, anger, beauty can just be without pushing and pulling when it’s clear no one can push or pull.

Is there anything here that is not the senses?

Everything here is just the senses.

There are also thoughts but maybe that’s not what you meant by your question.

do you notice that these are also sensations (maybe subtle but still…)?

Yes, very much so. I can feel a subtle sense of spaciousness or various vibrating sensations.

Is intention something that precedes and controls experience, or is it part of the unfolding itself? When you sit quietly and notice an intention arise… was there a “you” there before the intention, generating it? Or does it appear just like any other thought — spontaneously, unbidden, un-owned?
Can a concept initiate action? Or is it a narrative that arrives afterward, claiming authorship? (Did you watch the vimeo – that experiment has been done by many researchers).

Yes - I watched Vimeo and I’ve seen others like it as well. Super interesting stuff, particularly in this context.

I definitely don’t generate my intentions - they are just thoughts and they arise from conditioning like everything else. Absolutely unbidden and unowned.

Thinking about it more, I don’t think that intentions are really any different than other thoughts. They arise and disappear in the same way and don’t compel action.

I’m noticing a belief that intentions are long thoughts and when I remember my intention I congratulate myself but this might be insufficient evidence that “I” had agency or accomplished anything beyond my conditioning.

And about “missing the moment” — what if that, too, is a story told by thought? A commentary that imagines a better version of now, somewhere else.

Yeah. I think this is really like that idea of presence we were talking about earlier. Experience is experiencing, and missing or noticing forgetting or whatever are all part of that experience. Missing the moment is the moment.

How is then setting intentions different that the thought virus “LOOK” that I introduced?
Also are you in charge of thinking when you are setting intentions?? Are you the thinker of these intentions?
If no doer is needed, then what is the purpose of “intending”?

Yeah, I think I agree with you now. Yesterday I thought they were like, fancy preparatory thoughts or something, but you’re right, they’re not any different and any claim that they are is a story.

But does that make “intentions” any different than any other thought? Does intention have more super powers than any other regular thought (i.e. to conditionally describe what is already happening)? Can intentions see, hear, feel,…, do? Do they arise in a previous NOW than this NOW? (hint time is a story) Have a fresh look! See that even intentions are a conditioned or a new way of describing what is ALREADY happening.

Yup, I see your point. They are thoughts. Time is a story. Intentions are not real.

What is this moment, before naming it?
If presence isn’t a state you need to achieve — what’s left to attain?

This moment is just everything.
There’s nothing to attain, or even to drop or to do.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
It’s beautiful to witness this thread of clarity weaving through even your moments of frustration. That’s often how it moves, right? The "seeing" lands, then it slips out of view, and something in the system recoils — "I had it, and now it’s gone!" But what actually left? Just the label or recognition — not what’s here.

Returning to presence, I think, is an activity or state that the mind is identifying with. 'I' like to do this because that’s what 'I' do, therefore, 'I' exist.

Exactly. There’s often an identity built around “being mindful,” “being aware,” or “returning to presence” — but when looked at closely, those are just more thoughts arising within DE, not proof of a “me” managing anything. Even the impulse to “return” is just another wave in the same ocean.

But… what’s the point of pursuing this seeing if everything is exactly the same for 'me'?

This is such a natural question — and a pointer in itself. The seeking mind often assumes awakening will feel radically different, or deliver something. But if there’s no one to receive anything, then the value isn’t in gaining something new — it’s in the absence of resistance, effort, pushing, pulling.
Nothing changed, but everything looks different.
At this point it makes sense to revisit expectations. You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. That is the future orientated planner (aka thoughts about a better future). When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is here now. There is no other time or space. Just this. And look again: what is here that wants this to be different, and what feelings are here about that? Stay with the raw sensations. Come back to stillness.

There is no separate avatar inside this body driving it, no ghost in the machine. No one to benefit or lose out of this. Just life. Just this immediate experiencing, flowing freely, plain and simple. That’s why everything that happens is okay.
Sensations are happening, thoughts are passing by with no thinker. Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening— with or without the word “I.” The self is not needed for frustration to arise, nor for happy, joyful feelings. It all flows freely, as a response to a situation. Do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point to. Labels do not own experience. The word “experience” is a label too. And so the story goes on. Belief in the truthfulness of a story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without the fear that
something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick. Whatever happens feels okay. Even being miserable. Confidence, grace, fearlessness, and peace with what is start to shine through as fear is loosened.

Seeing no self is not enlightenment, it’s a first step, crossing a line (imaginary or not), the beginning of the “awakened” journey. It is not a door to happily ever after, it’s a door to the exploration of what this is. Seeing that there is no one here, no entity, clears the want for enlightenment, as it is seen that there is no one here to achieve that. The whole story of enlightenment can no longer find a place that can stick. No more seeking, but exploration does not end.

“So what?” you are asking. You may still feel like a separate being, but now you have the ultimate tool: looking! So keep on looking. Keep noticing, keep asking questions. All you need is already here. Trust that life is unfolding by itself and that there is no other way than this. You will know when deconstruction is over. Until then there is work to do. By “work,” I mean two things:
Question what you know is true.
Rest in the silence.

You put it beautifully:

Pain, anger, beauty can just be without pushing and pulling when it’s clear no one can push or pull.

Exactly. It’s not about improving experience — it’s about letting it be what it already is, untouched by commentary or control. No “better version” of now waiting elsewhere.

I definitely don’t generate my intentions – they are just thoughts and they arise from conditioning like everything else. Absolutely unbidden and unowned.

Yes. Intention is just another appearance — not a command, not a steering wheel. No more or less powerful than any other thought. It doesn’t direct the flow; it’s part of the flow. The belief that “I intended” is usually a post-hoc story, like the narrator catching up with what already happened.

And this was lovely:

Missing the moment is the moment.

Yes. That right there. The idea of “missing” the moment is still part of the moment. There’s no moment outside of this one where it could have been better, more “awake,” more “present.” Thought imagines those — but they never arrive.
So what’s here before naming it?
Just this. Unlabelled, unowned, unfiltered.
No distance to cross. No one left out. No future “you” waiting at the end. Nothing to attain. Not even presence.
Only what already is.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your clear pointing.

I don’t think I started this with any idea of what I thought that I thought my self was. The pointing has been towards agency over thoughts, or abilities to choose anything really.

I struggled with an eating disorder most of my life, and while it’s been far far better in recent years, it’s not gone. Earlier this week, the causes and conditions that trigger an issue arose. I knew exactly what would happen next and just went with it. I spent almost no energy trying to fight it or reason with myself, and I didn’t descend into a shame spiral, or self-hatred, or anxiety. I just rode the wave, and when the energy expired, I just moved on. Usually, after the energy expires, I freak out that I’ve screwed up again and spend loads of energy making rules for myself to avoid this ever happening again as long as I live and get so anxious that I end up having to drink excessively and the whole week ends up falling apart. This week was a really different experience. It just came and went without any drama.

I think how I started this journey was by intellectually understanding no-self, and believing in no-self, so when looking for it, I knew I wouldn’t find it. And when I didn’t find it, nothing shifted because there was no surprise; just a fulfillment of expectations.

This week I tried to shift the approach a bit and started from the point of “of course I exist; I’m right here!” and started from there. It resonated with my sense of truth, and when I looked from that place, it really felt bizarre to come up empty handed.

But what actually left?

Expectations, maybe? Nothing that actually exists left, but the thoughts and assumptions and expectations are shifting and adjusting to the fact that they noticed no one is home.

At this point it makes sense to revisit expectations. You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. That is the future orientated planner (aka thoughts about a better future). When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is here now. There is no other time or space. Just this. And look again: what is here that wants this to be different, and what feelings are here about that?

I think there’s some thoughts in the form of expectations still lingering around, and some disappointment surrounding the lack of drama and the lack of clarity around the shift - it still seems to blink in and out. Also, I thought there was supposed to be a honeymoon phase?! When does that happen?

It also feels very much in process and like things are moving beneath the surface. I had a really really good meditation session today where it felt like really core parts of my identity and personality are shifting and reorganizing and healing.

I’m also having odd responses - today, without any triggers, I had a craving for chocolate that was so intense it felt like I was about to be hit by a train, but it also looked like the train was maybe fake. As soon as I noticed the train wasn’t real, I got the most intense, powerful craving for a cocktail, that also seemed like a mirage. And then for doomscrolling, and basically all of my other bad habits. The cravings hit with tremendous energy but were harder and harder to believe.

I’m still getting non-duality / meditation related rage that seems to pop up every time after I sense a small shift somewhere. I guess the nervous system continues to adjust and the mind reorganizes and it's stressful in a subconscious way. I had one experience, right after the first small shift, where everything seemed inexplicably funny for about a day. I think that would be preferable to no-reason rage, but I'm sure the preference is just a thought too.

Do we really need to be enslaved by labels? After all, experience is what labels point to. Labels do not own experience.

Nope, doesn’t seem like a good idea.

So what’s here before naming it?

Just being. Just aliveness that doesn’t need any improvement from imagination.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
Thank you for this honest and moving reflection. There’s a deep clarity woven through your words — not always in the form of “aha!” moments, but in the quiet seeing that no fireworks are needed. That’s often more significant.
What you shared about the eating disorder is powerful. That shift from resisting, spiralling, and reacting — to simply letting the wave pass without grasping at it or constructing rules around it — that’s not small. That’s not theoretical. That’s the living, breathing edge of this seeing: no manager needed, no fixer, no self in the control tower. Just the wave rising, cresting, and falling — with no story insisting it shouldn't.

You described it beautifully:

Nothing that actually exists left, but the thoughts and assumptions and expectations are shifting and adjusting to the fact that they noticed no one is home.

Yes. That’s it. It’s not about wiping out all patterns or turning into a blank slate. It’s about the loosening of the glue that held those patterns together — the idea that someone was managing or owning or failing at it all.
And your metaphor of starting from “of course I exist” is a potent shift. Letting that felt truth stand — not brushing it aside, but looking directly into it — often brings a more sincere inquiry than the one built on expectation.
Yeah, the answer is always the same: just a thought, just a story. There was never something real to lose.

I think there’s some thoughts in the form of expectations still lingering around, and some disappointment surrounding the lack of drama and the lack of clarity around the shift - it still seems to blink in and out. Also, I thought there was supposed to be a honeymoon phase?! When does that happen?

Sometimes it comes. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes there’s giggles and awe, other times there’s rage and confusion — and sometimes just a quiet noticing that “oh… it’s just this.” But the belief that something huge should happen is itself a veil — another “improver,” another manager whispering, “it’s not enough yet.”

But have a look… Does this care about what you want this to be?
See if you need all those expectations or if it’s okay to let them all go. Take a closer look to see if expectations are useful in a practical sense. See if anything would be lost if those expectations were dropped. Having expectations is like trying to fit what is being seen into the frame of what it should look like. And sometimes it leads to missing what is already here. Circumstances (conditioning) surely matter, which makes it different for everyone. Anyway, it isn't that you'll live a carefree life for good, that is for sure. For the time being, it is safer to see liberation as just liberation, nothing more, nothing less. You see through the illusion, full stop.

We can blame Guru stories and the attraction to drama in our society for focusing on stories of the initial epiphany that some people have as they wake up. (because they sometimes have a ‘wow’ factor). This puts into our head, the idea of “bells and whistles”. We expect high drama to confirm that a significant shift has occurred. But most often there is no one major shift but a lot of small ones...

It’s important to see that expectations, too, are only thoughts about thoughts. They are distortions hiding and protecting beliefs. Staying with these expectations – letting them play out and seeing them as empty stories is vital. So yes, let this settle and enjoy the ride.
Check:
Are you after a state? That is blissful, full of laughter? Or feels different than being Lanie?
Is there perhaps an expectation that it must be seen 24/7? That it's not real seeing if it's not 24/7?
Can you zoom onto that seeking energy... and see what is it made of? What is seeking made of? Seeking means that I'm searching FOR something. What is that? What is it really that is being sought? What is it really that needs to be seen or discovered? What will prove that there is no self for sure (according to thought)?

I’m also having odd responses - today, without any triggers, I had a craving for chocolate that was so intense it felt like I was about to be hit by a train, but it also looked like the train was maybe fake. As soon as I noticed the train wasn’t real, I got the most intense, powerful craving for a cocktail, that also seemed like a mirage. And then for doomscrolling, and basically all of my other bad habits. The cravings hit with tremendous energy but were harder and harder to believe.

The train of craving is such a great pointer. These impulses used to run the show — and now they arrive with intensity, but lack solidity. They still play out in the body, but the narrative behind them is losing credibility. That’s freedom showing up.
And yes, the mind and body reorganize — sometimes with humor, sometimes with tension. But even those fluctuations are not outside what is. Even the resistance, the confusion, the anger — it’s all part of the weather, not proof of regression.
You wrote:

Just being. Just aliveness that doesn’t need any improvement from imagination.

Let that sink in.
Even the question “what now?” is just another ripple. Just this. No moment better than this. No version of you better than this one. No need to be anywhere else. No “next.”
Thank you again for your beautiful honesty and courage.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for sharing so honestly, and in such a no-nonsense, practical way. I liked what you said about guru stories shaping expectations - that really resonates. There are a lot of videos with click-bait titles and posts that seem to exaggerate the drama of what happens here. Reminds me of before/after photos for weight loss programs or something.

This seems like another step along the path to greater freedom, and not the crossing of a major threshold. And some parts of this - the illusion of choice is the big one that comes to mind - dropped about six years ago, only a month or two after I began any kind of attempt at a meditation practice. I felt a lot of newfound freedom when that fell, but never once thought that it was meaningfully significant in terms of any “path.”

This makes me curious about how many people are out there experiencing no-self and deep stages of realization and calling it something completely different or just not having a name for it at all. I suspect quite a lot.

I’m curious about your journey? You don’t have to share if you don’t want to, but I’d be interested in knowing how you came to this and what kind of transformation you’ve experienced through this.

Does this care about what you want this to be?

Apparently not.

Are you after a state? That is blissful, full of laughter? Or feels different than being Lanie?
Is there perhaps an expectation that it must be seen 24/7? That it's not real seeing if it's not 24/7?
Can you zoom onto that seeking energy... and see what is it made of? What is seeking made of? Seeking means that I'm searching FOR something. What is that? What is it really that is being sought? What is it really that needs to be seen or discovered? What will prove that there is no self for sure (according to thought)?

I think I came to this because the idea of not being myself sounded incredible. I don’t think that option was ever on the table in the way I hoped.

I think I do drop into deep presence, which can be blissful, more easily. Deep presence can also be open hearted, or grief filled, or just fascinated by light and shadow. It’s not different than being me, but it does have an absorption which feels richer.

And I think there was an expectation of seeing being 24/7. It was a hindrance too, as it activated a lot of mental “shoulds” about what to look at in order to “see.” The dropping of effort has been centered recently.

The thoughts are looking for a dropping of defensive energy in order to slip into a relaxed easy flow state. This nervous system’s go-to position, under any kind of stress, is to feel on edge and defensive in a slightly irritated, frustrated way. I hardly ever express anger in words or action (I tend to shut down defensively) but that sort of defensive angry cold state is really easily triggered and takes a lot of energy. There’s a belief that true seeing will result in the dropping of this state.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
There’s a real depth and humility in how you’re moving through this. I really enjoy reading your insights

Reminds me of before/after photos for weight loss programs or something.

Exactly :)! The conditioning runs deep — even around awakening.

This seems like another step along the path to greater freedom, and not the crossing of a major threshold.

What you’re describing feels less like a threshold being crossed and more like a quiet, continuous erosion of the structures that propped up the old self-sense.

…the illusion of choice is the big one that comes to mind - dropped about six years ago, only a month or two after I began any kind of attempt at a meditation practice. I felt a lot of newfound freedom when that fell, but never once thought that it was meaningfully significant in terms of any “path.”

The fact that it happened without fanfare is telling — seeing often happens in pieces, and not always with a spotlight on it.

This makes me curious about how many people are out there experiencing no-self and deep stages of realization and calling it something completely different or just not having a name for it at all. I suspect quite a lot.

You raise a great point. Maybe they just stopped struggling with themselves, or they “gave up” in the right way, or they let go of some imagined control and never picked it back up. It really doesn’t need a label.

Does this care about what you want this to be?

Apparently not.

This question is such a good one to sit with. Because if there’s still frustration or grasping, it’s likely from thought wanting this to match some imagined version. The seeking energy wants something — maybe peace, maybe release, maybe absorption — and there’s nothing wrong with that. But have a close look: does this (this presence, this alive moment) care at all about getting anywhere? Or is that just thought, spinning another loop?

Also: notice how much compassion there is in your seeing now. You’re not suppressing the frustration, the craving, the defensive edges — you’re letting them be part of what’s unfolding. That’s not a mistake; that is the unfolding. It’s often messy, rarely neat.

This nervous system’s go-to position, under any kind of stress, is to feel on edge and defensive in a slightly irritated, frustrated way. I hardly ever express anger in words or action (I tend to shut down defensively) but that sort of defensive angry cold state is really easily triggered and takes a lot of energy. There’s a belief that true seeing will result in the dropping of this state.

If the nervous system’s pattern is defensiveness, irritation, vigilance — then of course those will arise. The question becomes: are they happening to someone? Or are they simply appearing and dissolving, like everything else, within what’s already whole? Are labels the truth or this is just a story about sensations? Really look: what in the sensations makes them frustration or irritation? What if these are preparing the system for action like an adrenalin rush (another story of course)? Just even playing with a different plausible story shakes the foundations of strongly held beliefs. Nothing that thoughts says is real – it might be playing a role but it is really not what it talks about (the icons on your desktop). The real question which makes space for surrender is: Is there anyone/anything that needs this defence? So the disappearing of "these" is not automatic (and in general). It is about seeing first: there is no one who needs the protection, second: these are simply sensations that need to be experienced and their labels are really not what the sensations are, ust a story that has been repeated way too many times. In other words seeing the sensations in a different light. But all happens as a result of looking, not automatically.

Final thought — the idea that true seeing should erase all defensive patterns is just another benchmark thought. Another yardstick imagined by the mind. What if those reactions could arise and fall, without meaning anything about “how far” you are? And of course…Does this care about what you want this to be?

I’m curious about your journey? You don’t have to share if you don’t want to, but I’d be interested in knowing how you came to this and what kind of transformation you’ve experienced through this.

I’m happy to share a bit, as long as it’s clear that this isn't about a benchmark or a state to reach. This isn’t a personal success story — just the unfolding of what already is, with fewer stories layered on top. Nothing was gained, only illusions questioned. And what’s left was always here.

For me, this “journey” started 7 years ago (but it probably initiated long before that in the story of cause and effect). I had a teacher who did a direct pointing in her own way, based on her own experience. However, doubt hit and I found myself here. Like anyone, I was expecting seeing 24/7, happiness on tap, all my problems gone as a result of seeing no self, which made me doubt that there was a shift. Here, at LU, they made me see that these are just more stories the mind comes along up with. It was seen as a self-organising process. Settling the dust took some time – it really depends on your conditioning. I started guiding and I think, besides the compassion, it really helps to spot your own hidden/unseen till now beliefs. That is why we recommend guiding at some point. Besides being gratifying, it helps with your own clarity. It is really a never ending unravelling and simplifying.

Keep going! The dust may still be settling — but the clarity is unmistakable.
Love
Rali