Another guide please

[marka]

Hi Jon,

well, a bit of a mixed day today:

And I have a suggestion too..
Did I suggest earlier on that it can be a great thing to go for a walk in nature? To the park perhaps, or by the sea? Anyway, try to find time to do this and notice how alive everything is. The trees, grass, wind, clouds, sun, animals, people...all happening, all moving or changing. Now look for a line between 'you' and 'the rest of everything', a cut-of point where 'you end' and 'world begins'. Is there a line or edge, or is it all flowing, not separate?

this bit in particular:

Is there a line or edge

I didn't find a line or edge, there was no perceivable cut off point between me and the rest of everything, however:

or is it all flowing, not separate?

I didn't get this sense of it all flowing, not separate.

I'm not sure what that really means, 'all flowing'.
And that immediately worried me (thought commentary) as I wondered if that was supposed to be a 'given', passing through 'the gate' is recognising the flow, living in the flow?

And there was some anxiety today, almost from when I woke, specifically related to whether I had achieved the shift in perception.. And mind was 'busy' a lot of the day, certainly all morning.

And then later, this evening later, a family member who has not been well (mental health difficulties) turns up and I am completely there for them -so focused, so intensely with them, and honest, even though some of the honesty wasn't what they wanted to hear.
The point? There was hardly any thought going on, just intense focus in the moment.

Jon,, if I'm being totally honest, I have my doubts as to whether I have truly passed through t'he gate'. Surely I would know?
And this morning in particular, I even woke up and immediately started thinking that I had maybe not had this shift in perception (although I noted it was all in thought!)

So, I don't know where I am with this.
Sorry if that disappoints you but I really want the truth here and not pretend to myself, or anyone else.

I honestly do not know whether there has been a shift or not.
Thoughts? Comments? Any other exercises to help determine where I am?

Love,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

It's natural to wobble a bit. You're doing very well but let's consider what you have said.

didn't get this sense of it all flowing, not separate.

I'm not sure what that really means, 'all flowing'.
And that immediately worried me (thought commentary) as I wondered if that was supposed to be a 'given', passing through 'the gate' is recognising the flow, living in the flow?

No. Not a given at all. Suggesting that there should be some kind of definitive experience or quantifiable change in perception beyond noticing the way that thoughts create stories probably isn't helpful.

Me suggesting that you might notice 'flow' was injecting an idea of something (thought-story) that did not match whatever the experience actually was. Sorry for that. You actually noticed this anyway when you described the way one yoga position moved effortlessly to the next.

The important bit was whether you could find a line between 'you' and 'everything else'. Given that no line really exists it is much safer to guide someone to look for what cannot be found. Do you see why this might be?

And there was some anxiety today, almost from when I woke, specifically related to whether I had achieved the shift in perception.. And mind was 'busy' a lot of the day, certainly all morning.

We do not claim to guide to the elimination of anxiety and doubt. It is quite possible to cross the gate and for doubt or anxiety to pop up in the form of thoughts sometimes. The difference is in the way that these thoughts are seen, isn't it? Do thoughts make reality happen?

Look at the actual experience of doubt. What are these thoughts referring to?

And anxious thoughts. What are they referring to?

The point? There was hardly any thought going on, just intense focus in the moment.

And it is a good point. This was all noticed, wasn't it? Where has this new-found perspective on thought come from?

even woke up and immediately started thinking that I had maybe not had this shift in perception (although I noted it was all in thought!)

Is this noticing a fairly recent thing?

Love.

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

thanks for your last post. I'm learning an awful lot about thought processes!

Given that no line really exists it is much safer to guide someone to look for what cannot be found. Do you see why this might be?

Yes. because if looking in reality they will realise it cannot be found, does not exist (if found then it will be in thought, imagination.)

It is quite possible to cross the gate and for doubt or anxiety to pop up in the form of thoughts sometimes. The difference is in the way that these thoughts are seen, isn't it? Do thoughts make reality happen?

Yes, different in how thoughts are seen. Thoughts do not make reality happen, no (but they will make the 'illusion' happen,if believed!)

these next two questions:

Look at the actual experience of doubt. What are these thoughts referring to?

And anxious thoughts. What are they referring to?

thought stories, a fictional 'me'. Also, that there is an expectation - an expected outcome of some kind.

The point? There was hardly any thought going on, just intense focus in the moment.

And it is a good point. This was all noticed, wasn't it? Where has this new-found perspective on thought come from?

From looking at reality, what actually happens.

s this noticing a fairly recent thing?

Noticing it's all in thought? Yes that's fairly recent.

Actually, Jon, today has been much calmer. I readily notice what thought is doing and noticed today what was imagination (i.e had no basis in reality).
I certainly notice as fairly normal now how thoughts make stories.

thank you,

Love
Mark.

[JonathanR]

Well, let's just take a look at the expectation you mentioned then...

And anxious thoughts. What are they referring to?

thought stories, a fictional 'me'. Also, that there is an expectation - an expected outcome of some kind.

Can you say what this is? What form does the expectation take? What is the thought-story about this expectation?

Love,

Jon

[marka]

hi Jon,

Expectations. There must have been one because there was some disappointment.
I would like to state though that they are not relevant any more - I am happy with where I am.

I think it was around thoughts slowing down and there being more control over them. No, not that.
Or that it was about a 'higher consciousness' emerging, although I'm not really sure what that would have looked like.
I seem to be really struggling to articulate this.

Overall I know I was just surprised that the 'change' was so simple, so small in a sense ..... noticing thought is constantly creating stories and that that is how self is created and maintained.
And now being able to notice that with ease.

I think I'm happy just to let this settle down for a while and see what happens.

What do you think?

Love,

Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Expectations. There must have been one because there was some disappointment.
I would like to state though that they are not relevant any more - I am happy with where I am

Great. Many people experience what happened to you. Seeing it clearly and then days or weeks later doubting that anything has been 'seen'. Thoughts, thoughts.

I think it was around thoughts slowing down and there being more control over them. No, not that.
Or that it was about a 'higher consciousness' emerging, although I'm not really sure what that would have looked like.
I seem to be really struggling to articulate this.

It doesn't matter. Looks like it is seen for what it was, a kind of thought-assumption about how 'no self' should seem?

Overall I know I was just surprised that the 'change' was so simple, so small in a sense ..... noticing thought is constantly creating stories and that that is how self is created and maintained.
And now being able to notice that with ease.

Yes. It is not complicated. The ramifications of seeing this cannot be known. Who knows its true dimensions?

I think I'm happy just to let this settle down for a while and see what happens.

Sounds good. Yes, its enough simply to remain interested in experience, enough to look at whatever comes along.

Don't go away quite yet though. I'm going to go back to see what the other guides have to say

Love,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hey Mark,

I have some nice news. Not that you need anyone to tell you what has already been seen but the other guides all agree that you have 'gone through the gateless gate'. Congratulations.

I know what you have said about this being a very subtle thing and so it appears to be. But it is very clear that you are aware of the way thoughts create an idea of 'self' and that if looked for no actual self can be found anywhere.

In fact, your answers to the six questions struck me as very clear indeed. Spacious or expansive are adjectives that come to mind.

I'm so delighted this has happened. It has been my utmost pleasure to be able to assist you in this.

Now various things happen. Our conversation here is at an end. However there is a growing online community of people such as yourself who have also seen through the illusion of 'self'. I will PM you with details (look for a message just under where it says Board Index - The Gate above). If you don't find the message just post here again

Don't be surprised when, in a day or two, our conversation here disappears. It will have been moved into the 'read-only' Archive section of the Forum.

Love

Jon.

[marka]

Likewise Jon,
It too has been an absolute pleasure working with you,
Thank you dearly,
Love Mark