The Gate

Hi Jon,

have been looking to see if there is a 'doer' of thoughts. It seems obvious that there is not although this is possibly more thought answering - I have had no real lucid moments specifically on that, on the actaul 'catching' of the thoughts - will continue to look as you've suggested.

thanks,
Mark

Hi Jon,

I have been looking at thoughts quite a bit today.

I cannot find the thinker, the 'doer' of thoughts.
Each time I had some thoughts, say auditory, as soon as I enquired into where the thinker was things just went silent.
I never did find an actual thinker.

Thanks Jon,
Mark

Also Jon,

With the image type thoughts I have not been able to find a creator of them either.
The image thoughts often seem relevant to what is happening, or what is already being thought, but when I try to catch who is creating them there is no one to be found.

So I can only conclude there is no me creating thoughts.

That brings the question as to who or what is creating them, where do they come from and why are they always so relevant to my situation - in that they don't appear as being completely random.

I don't have answers for any of those questions either!

Love,
Mark

Mark, please forgive me. I have been terribly busy with work and driving up and down the country. I have managed to read your post but not reply. It looks like are doing really well, but I promise to answer later today.

All the best,

Jon

Hi Jon,

It's no trouble, write when you have time, I guessed you were busy or something. It really is no problem.

In the mean time I will simply keep looking at the thoughts.

Much love,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Very odd. I wrote a reply to you which I was sure that I posted here yesterday but it doesn't seem to be here! Sorry.

So I can only conclude there is no me creating thoughts.

Yes, it does seem that thoughts just arrive or appear, perhaps a little like the way sensations appear? Then they seem to go. Is it ever possible to find a 'self' creating thoughts?

That brings the question as to who or what is creating them, where do they come from and why are they always so relevant to my situation - in that they don't appear as being completely random.

We can look but it may not be possible to find 'where' they come from (even 'where' is a thought). But it is possible to say they DO appear and that they are usually ABOUT something, isn't it?

Do you see, there is primary, immediate experience and then there is commentary about experience? And isn't the sense of 'me' part of the commentary rather than a real entity?

Whilst there is a perception of a 'situation' in which there is a 'Mark' do you see that thoughts about this will always seem relevant to the situation they have imagined?

In reality, what is actually happening?

Love,

Jon

Hi Jon,

No worries about the response going missing, thanks for what you've said.

I will think about what you've written and give it time to digest. Will write tomorrow,

Thanks
Mark

hi Jon,

I have processed your last post:

Is it ever possible to find a 'self' creating thoughts?

I do not think so.

But it is possible to say they DO appear and that they are usually ABOUT something, isn't it?

Yes, agree.

Do you see, there is primary, immediate experience and then there is commentary about experience?

Yes, hadn't 'framed' experiences in this way but yes, I see this.

And isn't the sense of 'me' part of the commentary rather than a real entity?

Yes, of course, it seems very obvious put like this.

Whilst there is a perception of a 'situation' in which there is a 'Mark' do you see that thoughts about this will always seem relevant to the situation they have imagined?

I note that this happens and it makes sense - that is, what else are they going to be about?
(although it did take me some time to think this through!)

In reality, what is actually happening?

Nothing other than thoughts and thought stories and direct experience.

I am still finding this fascinating. Please continue with more guidance.

love,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Whilst there is a perception of a 'situation' in which there is a 'Mark' do you see that thoughts about this will always seem relevant to the situation they have imagined?
I note that this happens and it makes sense - that is, what else are they going to be about?
(although it did take me some time to think this through!)

OK, let's look a little closer. There is the thought 'I' am 'having a bath', for example. Notice how thoughts of 'me or 'I' always appear in relation to some sort of object (in this example, a bath, but could be 'bar of chocolate', 'headache', 'boring time' , 'other person' or just about anything else).

So we have looked for 'self' in experience and have not found one. Let's now look for the other side of this. If you are having a bath, look for 'bath' in direct experience. Does 'bath' exist or is it more like an array of immediate sensations that we have learned to call 'having a bath'? In this immediate experience, is there actually 'bath'? Don't analyze this. Just try it out and see what the sensations/experience is like.

Try another. Walking along a street, is there 'pavement' or is it just the raw experience of pressure through feet linked with the raw seeing of colours and form (normally labelled as 'pavement') and perhaps a thought 'I am walking on the pavement'? Without the assumption, is there any 'pavement'?

What is found?

Love,

Jon.

Hi Jon,

thanks for that extra explanation, it really helped me understand.

this bit I have done but with a bicycle:

Walking along a street, is there 'pavement' or is it just the raw experience of pressure through feet linked with the raw seeing of colours and form (normally labelled as 'pavement') and perhaps a thought 'I am walking on the pavement'? Without the assumption, is there any 'pavement'?

and what happened was this:

pressure on bum, pressure on feet which changes as they move.
thought comments that we are cycling
very slight pressure on face and temperature change (this is noticing the wind),
eyes note many images coming and going quickly, and within that, many colours and shapes coming quickly into sight and then disappearing,
thought comments that we are cycling fast, downhill.

So, same question (just adapted):

'is there 'bike' or just the raw experience of pressure through feet linked with the raw seeing of colours and form?'

it's clear there is just the raw experience of pressure and seeing.

Is there any bike?

Well, thought says 'of course there is a bike, 'I' can see it' but direct experience simply has the experience described above.
Amazing how easily and quickly these labels get taken for granted and assumed to be the actual reality.

sorry I changed it to a bike, I;m not trying to be difficult! Just fitted well with my experience.

thanks Jon, this has been revealing,

Love Mark

Hi Mark,

It's great to hear from you. You seem to be seeing this more and more clearly.

. it's clear there is just the raw experience of pressure and seeing.

That is it. Without labels or naming. The real experience of what IS.

Well, thought says 'of course there is a bike, 'I' can see it' but direct experience simply has the experience described above.
Amazing how easily and quickly these labels get taken for granted and assumed to be the actual reality.

Yes, and thought continues to present these sorts of interpretations. Isn't language made of these labels? A label for every possible experience? Maybe even a label instead of every experience?

Let's return to the issues of Choice and Decision. Is it clear that no one 'chooses' (between alternative options? If not I can suggest an exercise). Likewise. Is there one that 'decides' or do decisions just appear to be made? In cycling, for instance, is there a decision to 'pedal', or does that just happen? Even writing a reply to this post, how much are there 'decisions' about what to say, or do most of the ideas just appear as the typing happens?

Love,

Jon.

Hi Jon,

yes, I am seeing things more clearly.

this bit:

Let's return to the issues of Choice and Decision. Is it clear that no one 'chooses'

It is when I really look and break things down to what actually happens. However, there is still the tendency to assume there is a chooser - maybe just out of habit.

Likewise. Is there one that 'decides' or do decisions just appear to be made?

the same as above,

This bit though:

In cycling, for instance, is there a decision to 'pedal', or does that just happen?

well, that may just happen but not sure I have fully realised this, maybe some exercises around this please.

thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark,

It is when I really look and break things down to what actually happens. However, there is still the tendency to assume there is a chooser - maybe just out of habit.

Could easily be. There has been a lifetime of assuming this. It takes a while to see this. Notice how 'choices' are assumed and it's assumed that 'self chooses'.

If we choose, it ought to be possible to notice exactly when the point of choice is made? Place both hands on a table. After a while, raise one arm in the air but not the other. Watch for the exact moment of choice between the two arms. What do you notice?

cycling, for instance, is there a decision to 'pedal', or does that just happen?

well, that may just happen but not sure I have fully realised this, maybe some exercises around this please.

Sure. It seems that 'decisions' of all sorts need to be made and as though this is really what is going on. But do things happen this way?

Think of a city. Whichever city came to mind, where was the decision to think of this one in particular? Was there one that chose between options and decided on this one? Or did this city just appear, almost as if from nowhere?

You need to cycle to work... Some way down the road it is noticed that there was no 'decision' to 'go and get the bike'. It just happened and now there is cycling. In fact many things seem to just flow naturally, don't they? Find some examples where it would seem that a decision is needed and then look to see if a decision was made or if action just flowed (and then thought announced 'I decided').

All the best,

Jon.

Thanks Jon, will report back on this tomorrow,
Mark

Hey Jon,

hope you're well.

this bit first:

If we choose, it ought to be possible to notice exactly when the point of choice is made? Place both hands on a table. After a while, raise one arm in the air but not the other. Watch for the exact moment of choice between the two arms. What do you notice?

I notice that thought does a lot of commentary: sometimes predicting when the hand is going to be lifted, sometimes getting excited as in 'any second now'!
However, despite all this thought involvement, what I really notice is that I could not 'predict' or tell when the exact moment of the arm lifting would occur.
I could not notice when the exact point of choice was made., the arm lifted when it wanted to, seemingly all by itself.

Think of a city. Whichever city came to mind, where was the decision to think of this one in particular? Was there one that chose between options and decided on this one? Or did this city just appear, almost as if from nowhere?

I did not find a 'decision being made' moment - the city came to mind automatically as if from nowhere.

this next bit:

In fact many things seem to just flow naturally, don't they?

well, I forgot I was looking in this way! Instead, I focused more on the point the decision was made (so more of the above really) but again, not able to note anyone 'making decisions'.
I was doing a yoga practice and I was aware of the yoga practice flowing, from one posture to another, just happening by itself - this was really clear, the point to come out of a posture - no decider doing that. The time taken to hold the posture? no decider doing that. That's what I mean by it just flowed.
But - I did not really focus on thought to note its commentary:
I will focus more on the flow aspect connected to thought, see what is noticed and report back. Probably tomorrow now.

thanks and Love,
Mark