Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

but the question is: is a nobody's desire to fly all BS (which since it is expressed as story it must be)?

The desire if present is there, and as such is experiencing. Not BS.
If the desire was engendered from story, then the content of the story may have been BS, but it is too late to worry about that as it is past.
You may not be liberated at this point in time but you have certainly 'achieved' a state of (what Jed McKenna called) human adulthood. i have no doubt that this does make Life-ing very acceptable for you. (although it may make those around you a little uncomfortable at times)
Most of the necessary conditions for liberation are in place for you, and now it is a case of being open when Life-ing presents you with the remaining ones. Be relaxed.

love love

vince

[ixturtle]

Feeling relaxed at the moment. Even human adulthood feels like a stretch at times when old conditioning is strong, but I guess the difference all rests in the seeing.

Its a funny conundrum-- accepting now as it is and yet curious about what's still unseen. I remember seeing in a book years ago a drawing that looked almost like a lot of things but was hard to know what it actually was. Then once you saw the cow's face, what the drawing was was absolutely clear and no one could convince you otherwise. The drawing was likened to awakening and its been surfacing in my thoughts of late. I do feel like this human thing is less vexing, but "cow face" clarity is still elusive.

And yet, even that distinction lives in the mind. What's obviously here now in experience-- table, cup, chair, finger pecking at letters on a tiny screen, watercolor, coffee house chatter, even mind chatter-- arises like a cow face (minus the labels and associated stories) so to speak.

So what is left? What are the remaining necessary conditions, do you suppose? (Asking from a relaxed curious place, not a grasping one.)

[vinceschubert]

What are the remaining necessary conditions, do you suppose?

If we knew that...
Expectations born of story are probably the main barrier to you benefiting from the 'certainty' of 'knowing'.
When old conditioning is strong, do you take this as meaning that you are not liberated ?
Would the 'certainty' that you are liberated (from the delusion of a separate self) mean a different response to that old conditioning ?
It took about a year for there to be no emotional response to frustrating circumstances. (and still a quick succession of frustrations can elicit emotion. - though it is (almost) instantly seen. it happens so infrequently that there is not much opportunity for de-conditioning)
How frequently (and intensely) do you have unpleasant responses to story ?
How quickly do you recognize what is happening ?
Has there been improvement over time with these responses ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

On the road again...

Initially the thought arose when i read your email a few days ago that not much had been bothering me lately so that I would wait until something did to see. Ha haha....

Then of course a cascade of things came down the river. Somethings i take more seriously than others, but the over riding theme of things that have a heap of weight to them is "safety."

The rest comes and goes, but when my safety trigger gets pushed-- whether it's wolf prints on the trail or someone violating local fire laws-- the mind has a hard time seeing thoughts as refrigerator noise. i see the use of some of these thoughts, but they are also clearly limiting in other ways.

When old conditioning is strong, do you take this as meaning that you are not liberated ?

yes, i suppose that's true... i get that it's the seeing of it real time, not the absence of it that is the distinction. still...

Would the 'certainty' that you are liberated (from the delusion of a separate self) mean a different response to that old conditioning ?

the response might be the same for a while, but the story is that there would be less and less weight to it. it would seem like a game... even if you get caught up in it, no big deal.

How frequently (and intensely) do you have unpleasant responses to story ?

Less frequently, and for the most part less intensely, though it depends on the trigger... Seem to get on the other side of it more quickly though; and there appears to be more space for others to maneuver in new ways, which has been surprising and a great relief.

How quickly do you recognize what is happening ?

The recognition of being caught is almost immediate, but the ability to see through/let go of trying to dictate/control reality can take some time.

Has there been improvement over time with these responses ?

certainly...

just realizing now that there is a heaviness that arises when i haven't been logging in-- part conditioning of not fulfilling "my part of the bargain" but also because checking in reorients the mind to look, and even if it hasn't seen through the illusory nature of self in a clear and convincing way, the process makes life easier and lighter and more enjoyable.

sending a appreciative cyber hug to you on the other side of this big blue marble--

[ixturtle]

Hi Vince-- just a note to say I won't have cell access for a few days; will check back in when back in digital world. All well
Ix

[vinceschubert]

Can you grok, 'THIS is IT !"

Hugging back...

[ixturtle]

Can you grok, 'THIS is IT !"

thoughts arising went like this--

"Yes,it's obvious that the only thing there is is what is."
"No. I get it at the level of thought but its not really "grokked" because if it were, there would be shift in perspective."
"But that's a story, so it's not a truth, it's just part of what's here too. Which is a shift in perspective and in any case, how could there be anything BUT what's here."
"But I'm still trapped in my stories, even if that's all they are. There are shifts, yes, but the answer to Vince's question is no"
"But if the only difference between the answers yes and no is the story of no, then why not say yes?"

Oy!

Otherwise, just allowing things to be. Some things are trickier than others, though that's seen too as story.

[vinceschubert]

When you see that a story is happening, what is the response to it ?
Is there a dissociation from it. A knowing that it doesn't have to be expressed ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

When you see that a story is happening, what is the response to it ?
Is there a dissociation from it. A knowing that it doesn't have to be expressed ?

Sometimes. With the big ones though, experience is more like -- "well I'm totally identified here and it feels rotten and i hate it but this is the texture of the moment so it might as well be allowed to be here." while this response is obviously totally caught in "self" there is a tiny spaciousness in the allowing that is new.

[vinceschubert]

With the big ones though, experience is more like -- "well I'm totally identified here and it feels rotten and i hate it but this is the texture of the moment so it might as well be allowed to be here."

This sounds like resignation (except for that "tiny spaciousness..")
"Might as well be allowed to be here." This is also a story. As all stories are constructed, let's replace that one with a better one, a great one.
When "well I'm totally identified here" occurs, instead of hating it, let's celebrate that Recognition with a good humored chuckle. (even laugh out loud)
The Recognition is enough to short circuit the journey down that pathway, and thus abort the 'completion satisfaction' that might have happened. This causes the synaptic connections to atrophy.
Associating it with the openness of good humor floods the body with hormones that reward the shift. It's Brain re-training.
The laughing is important. It opens and welcomes which banishes the shoulder slump that previously occurred.
If you are alone (or uninhibited) then throw back your head and shoulders and look up as a laugh erupts from deep inside your belly.

love

vince

[ixturtle]

Ha ha! This post made me laugh out loud since this practice is very much a part of my life-- especially with the small stuff but is often ultimately the trigger that shifts the energy of the big stuff. that said, perhaps I can up the ante a bit more/ Jump in closer to the recognition.

Thanks for this-- :-)

[vinceschubert]

perhaps I can up the ante a bit more/ Jump in closer to the recognition.

As time passes (?) it's the less frequently occurring stories that happen. Also the ones that are 'buried' deeper (often family of origin stuff)
A reminder is often timely. i found recently that i was raising my voice in response to old conditioning and was forgetting to notice the process. (so the chuckle wasn't happening) and thus the de-conditioning wasn't occurring. (of course it was actually reinforcing it)

We have been through so much ground that i don't remember all we have covered.
It's good to know that you are keeping the focus on this stuff. (as talking to you help vince to do the same)

Peace and love

vince

[ixturtle]

OK-- so the story that's showing up, which perhaps you can help disentangle, is that yes, laughter is easily accessible to me MOST of the time, and when it is, it's a direct ticket into presence, acceptance, wonder, surrender. however the basic assumption of separateness still lingers underneath so when big triggers come along -- as you said, early family of origin stuff-- laughter can be used to physically switch the emotional field with varying degrees of effectiveness but the "genuine laughter" of "OH, THIS STORY IS NOT REALLY REAL! HA HA HA!" is not there because "not real" is more an idea than a knowing.

as i said before, there is indeed a tiny bit more spaciousness in the midst of big drama (and significantly more spaciousness in the presence of small drama). so if this process of yielding has its own timing, then i'm ok with that. i DO see clearly now that the constant seeking is part and parcel of the suffering. the more i relax around that the better.

but when you asked me to laugh, the thought arose that i'm exceptionally good at laughing for no reason-- but laughing for a reason (e.g., the absurdity of taking this self seriously) hasn't quite landed into present experiencing, at least when the self gets particularly activated/defensive. and at the risk of sounding like an obsessive seeker, it still feels like this mind needs to jump through some sort of cosmic hoop to really SEE (in a way that shifts allegiance) that this story of self is just a story that doesn't need protecting, maneuvering, responding, etc.

back to square one? ;-)

[vinceschubert]

back to square one? ;-)

..it's not a square, it's a spiral.
There is no possible way to be 'where' we were before. . .

i'll swim in the rest of your post this afternoon

v

[ixturtle]

yes, spiral. i almost added that too but spiral one sounded funny! :-)

starting my trek home today, but expect to have time on this journey to post. look forward to any gleanings you might have on yesterday's query.

peace brother--