The Gate

Yes, but the mind needs to interpret that experiencing.

Ok, this is a key point.
The brain will interpret the experiencing. Thoughts (words) are used to communicate it, but thoughts that spin off into Meaning (for example) add to the original experiencing and then we react to that meaning and thus Add to the original Experiencing while still believing it to be the original Experiencing. This is where suffering starts.

vince

So there are stories that retract me from seeing & accepting experience.

The stories do seem real to some extent.. they are not part of experience but there meaning etc. is understood.

So there are stories that retract me from seeing & accepting experience.

yes, well they add to experiencing and thus change it, so that Experiencing becomes in part the direct Experiencing and the rest (perhaps most of it) becomes the result of the stories. There are the thoughts that describe the Experiencing, which are still story and conceptual, but are directly related to the Experiencing, and then there are the thoughts that are about those thoughts. An example would be the thoughts that attribute meaning to the Experiencing, or the thoughts that concentrate on possible outcomes, the future oriented thoughts. It's the response to these thoughts that are the main cause of suffering.

The stories do seem real to some extent..

Yes, of course they do. The mind is very good at finding evidence to reinforce them. Even the emotional response to them is taken as proof that they are right. The other thing is that they are never questioned. The whole world (it seems) also backs up this way of thinking (especially the advertisers of product to 'improve' your situation) Even language supports it.

they are not part of experience but there meaning etc. is understood.

Yes, and where this is seen, there is no longer an identification with the personal attributes of the stories. They are still useful, mind you. They have a place, but the illusion that they are 'you' or 'you' are them is seen through. We can now tell the difference between what is conceptual and what is reality.

Even the emotional response to them is taken as proof that they are right.

If the (content of) thoughts were unreal they wouldn't be able to produce a real product such as emotion etc.

Of course they would. As a kid, what did you feel when you thought of Santa ? As an adult what emotion arose when you thought the rope was a snake ?

As a kid, what did you feel when you thought of Santa ?

Happiness.

As an adult what emotion arose when you thought the rope was a snake ?

Fear.

So didn't these thoughts of fiction produce real emotions ?

So didn't these thoughts of fiction produce real emotions ?

Yes, they produced real emotions. They weren't fictitious thoughts until they were seen to be incorrect.

They weren't fictitious thoughts until they were seen to be incorrect.

So for a while there was belief that they were correct ?
..and when seen that they were fictitious, the emotional response changed, right ?
In exactly the same way, when the thoughts about a 'self' are seen to be fictitious, the responses change and we find we are relating to Reality rather than story.

So for a while there was belief that they were correct ?

Yes.

..and when seen that they were fictitious, the emotional response changed, right ?

Yes, in seeing that the thoughts don't line up with reality.

In exactly the same way, when the thoughts about a 'self' are seen to be fictitious, the responses change and we find we are relating to Reality rather than story.

Ok. So then comes the belief of a self (controller/thinker) existing in the mind.

Ok. So then comes the belief of a self (controller/thinker) existing in the mind.

Can you see that this self exists as a mental construct ?

Can you see that this self exists as a mental construct ?

Maybe.

Yes, the self exists as a concept. But I am not completely certain.

Yes, the self exists as a concept. But I am not completely certain.

Are the bits that are not certain, thoughts that say "self might be some organ that science hasn't discovered yet", or "self might be a physical part of the brain, not yet identified by science" or "self is thoughts that are special thoughts, ones that are unlike the garbage thoughts that occur sometimes." ? ..or what ?

"self is thoughts that are special thoughts, ones that are unlike the garbage thoughts that occur sometimes." ?

Something along the lines of this.