The Gate

But there is still the underlying belief of a self.

So how do you experience this belief ?
If it's not perceptual, then it completely mind stuff ?

If it's not perceptual, then it completely mind stuff ?

Yes.

..and if it's mind stuff it can only be ABOUT reality. NOT it, just about it. Right ?

..and if it's mind stuff it can only be ABOUT reality. NOT it, just about it. Right ?

Yes.

So the only experience is of the body. When the mind stuff evokes an emotional response it is still a bodily response. (which in turn probably produces more mind stuff, which produces more emotions...)
So is there any experiencing of a me in the body ? or is that all mind stuff ?

So is there any experiencing of a me in the body ? or is that all mind stuff ?

No there is only experience of the body.

The self is experienced as a thought. It seems like its own thing.

The self is experienced as a thought.

vinceschubert wrote:..and if it's mind stuff it can only be ABOUT reality. NOT it, just about it. Right ?
Ali said; Yes.

So 'self' is not reality, just mind stuff. Story.
Certainly the responses to it are reality. Just as the fear evoked by a piece of rope that is thought to be a snake is real. But once we see it is only a piece of rope the response changes and fear vanishes. Just so with the story of self. Once it is seen as story, we no longer take it so seriously. It still has its' uses but we no longer believe that we are the story. Identification with it is finished.
Habit will mean that old behavior doesn't vanish immediately, but each time we 'catch' ourself reacting as we used to when we still identified, that recognition allows the behavior to drop and some de-conditioning occurs. Soon it's only occasionally that we respond in the old way.

vince

There is still identification with the self.

There is still identification with the self.

Can you define "identification" ?
How does it work ?
How do you experience it ?

[quote="vinceschubert]Can you define "identification" ?[/quote]
Some intrinsic knowing of an identity.

How does it work ?

I don't know.

[quote="vinceschubert"How do you experience it ?[/quote]
Maybe it is the thought-center of experience.

Can you define "identification" ?

Some intrinsic knowing of an identity.

How does it work ?

I don't know.

How do you experience it ?

Maybe it is the thought-center of experience.

Some intrinsic knowing of an identity.

By intrinsic knowing, do you mean Mind stuff ?

Maybe it is the thought-center of experience.

You can experience having a thought. You can experience a response to thoughts, but there is no thought-center of experience.
Are we just talking about hanging on to a belief here ?

By intrinsic knowing, do you mean Mind stuff ?

I suppose.

Are we just talking about hanging on to a belief here ?

I guess so, I can't deliberately let go of the belief.

but there is no thought-center of experience.

There is if it's believed in.

..and if it's mind stuff it can only be ABOUT reality. NOT it, just about it.

My understanding of reality can only ever be about it.

My understanding of reality can only ever be about it.

Certainly, Understanding can only be about it. It takes mind to understand. Any understanding can at best be like a drawing of something, a poor representation or the actual.
But we are not talking about Understanding Reality, we are referring to Experiencing Reality. No Understanding required. Experiencing IS it. Experiencing IS reality.

Yes, but the mind needs to interpret that experiencing.