Another guide please

[JonathanR]

Likewise Mark, good to hear back from you.

Let's shine a light on a couple of things. You have said...

Yes. It seems like it. ME got up!

Tempting to say decisions made

Hmm. Again, want to believe there was a chooser

In each of these statemnts you seem to be expressing a regret.

'Seems like a ME got up'. What, exactly, constitutes this ME then?. Exactly what 'got up'?

There is temptation to say 'decisions are made'. There is a desire to 'believe in a chooser'. Look right now at this temptation and this desire. Try to find the one that is tempted and desires. Is there one?

Best wishes,

Jon.

[marka]

God day Jon,

you asked:

'Seems like a ME got up'. What, exactly, constitutes this ME then?. Exactly what 'got up'?

what constitutes this me is a wealth of self references and assumptions and beliefs.

Try to find the one that is tempted and desires. Is there one?

there is 'something' that was tempted, 'something' that had desire to believe in a chooser.
Or maybe it's more truthful to say there was temptation to say 'decisions made' and that there was desire to believe in a chooser. That's all.
In that moment that was all and yet it gets translated into there was a 'me' doing it.

thanks,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hello Mark,

what constitutes this me is a wealth of self references and assumptions and beliefs.

Yes. So, thoughts, feelings that connect with some of these feelings and perhaps ideas suggested long ago when we were young children? But no actual entity. 'Me'?

there was temptation to say 'decisions made' and that there was desire to believe in a chooser. That's all.
In that moment that was all and yet it gets translated into there was a 'me' doing it.

Translated by what? By 'a person' , 'me'? Or simply by thought?

That is good observation Mark.

So, is there someone 'choosing' between alternatives or does choice just sort of happen, with thought making the comment 'that was me that was'?

Same with decisions. Is there a self that 'decides' or is it really that apparent decisions are made, but not by a 'me'?

Find some moments where choice or decision seem to be needed. Look closely at what happens, how thought may comment or announce and let me know how it goes.

Best wishes

Jon.

[marka]

Hello Jon,

looked at this today:

Translated by what? By 'a person' , 'me'? Or simply by thought?

translated simply by thought. that's it, haven't realised that it really is thought masquerading as 'me'.

Find some moments where choice or decision seem to be needed. Look closely at what happens, how thought may comment or announce and let me know how it goes.

Whether or not to go to the gym. Thoughts - initially as an image (quick flash) of gym and then by commentary of deciding. There was no self that I could find deciding things.
And where the idea of going to the gym came from? Don't know. Part of my current habit pattern I guess.

speak soon,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

How is it going?

translated simply by thought. that's it, haven't realised that it really is thought masquerading as 'me'.

That's good. Did that seem like a surprise when it was seen? Keep an eye on this. Maybe it's possible to 'wake up' from time to time to this sort of thought pattern masquerading as 'me' now that it is noticed?

Whether or not to go to the gym. Thoughts - initially as an image (quick flash) of gym and then by commentary of deciding. There was no self that I could find deciding things.
And where the idea of going to the gym came from? Don't know. Part of my current habit pattern I guess.

Good. A few more practical instances would be great. Just times when a 'decision' or 'choice' seem to be about to happen or seem 'necessary'. Notice the process. As simple as a choice between tea and coffee, for example. Does 'someone' 'choose' or do things just...happen?

How do you feel about finding no 'decider', no 'decision'?

Best wishes,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

it's good thanks, much better and back into routine.

I said:

translated simply by thought. that's it, haven't realised that it really is thought masquerading as 'me'.

Your response:

That's good. Did that seem like a surprise when it was seen?

Yes, it did. Although this happened when I first read your response, a whole day ago now, possibly should have responded immediately. A day later and a lot of the novelty/uniqueness of it has been lost.

How do you feel about finding no 'decider', no 'decision'?

Well, it's ok, but initially thoughts did a 'there must be' reaction. It is strange to notice no decider, like it was just happening by itself. Just sitting with it.

Will do this:

A few more practical instances would be great. Just times when a 'decision' or 'choice' seem to be about to happen or seem 'necessary'. Notice the process.

thanks,
Mark

[marka]

Hi Jon,

A few more practical instances would be great. Just times when a 'decision' or 'choice' seem to be about to happen or seem 'necessary'. Notice the process.

Today have noticed a couple of times. There seems to be thoughts of a visual kind. Like flashes of images, possibilities. I noticed in one example some brief feeling toward one of the images, positive feelings. There was also lots of dialogue, commentary mostly, bringing other things into consideration. That helped decide the choice.

However, I'm not entirely sure how the choice was made or at what point it was decided. I think it moght have been a thought saying 'so that's what we'll do' but cannot be sure.

I'll keep looking at this for the next day or so.

thanks
Mark

[JonathanR]

Yes, Good man! See if you can find the exact moment where the choice seems to happen.

Best wishes,

Jon

[marka]

still looking Jon, nothing new to report but will post tomorrow.

Mark

[marka]

Hi Jon,

I don't seem to be getting anything new. There are image flashes, commentary, sometimes some feeling (as in 'favouring' one choice).

As to the exact moment when the decision is made ..... I'm a bit stumped.
I did have an experience where the 'choice' seemed to come from within, an intuitive sense, but I don't think that helps much for the purpose of pinpointing the decision.

What do you recommend?

thanks,
Mark

[JonathanR]

Absolutely nothing Mark!

This was to see if a 'decider' or a 'chooser' could be found 'making decisions or choices'. And I'm not surprised you are having trouble there!

If no 'self' can be located anywhere, what would be making decisions and choosing between alternatives? That would take a kind of controller that is constantly 'deciding' what decsions he is going to make in advance and then making those decisions, wouldn't it?

Remember the example of driving? The whole sequence of driving into town may well happen without a single thought about which decision or choice must happen next. What about cycling? Imagine the bizarre situation whereby a 'decider' would be continually issuing instructions as to 'how to cycle'.

Is there one that 'makes things happen,' or do things flow along without intervention by a 'me' that 'causes' them?

Best wishes,

Jon

[marka]

Hi Jon,

hope you're well today and not too busy (not sure if it was just last Monday or every Monday that's busy for you)?

This was to see if a 'decider' or a 'chooser' could be found 'making decisions or choices'. And I'm not surprised you are having trouble there!

well, it's encouraging to know I wasn't supposed to find anything else!

Is there one that 'makes things happen,' or do things flow along without intervention by a 'me' that 'causes' them?

I can say that things flow without a me causing them.

(I still do not quite believe this, even though I have seen it before.)
It's like I'm still not too clear on how this occurs and cannot really explain it to myself and certainly not to anyone else!
So I thought to ask you, do I need to be clear on this? I get it in the moment of looking, that's it.

thanks, speak soon,

Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark.

Mondays are quite busy for me but not too bad this week thanks!

I can say that things flow without a me causing them.

That's good.

(I still do not quite believe this, even though I have seen it before.)
It's like I'm still not too clear on how this occurs and cannot really explain it to myself and certainly not to anyone else!

Belief is not required here, is it? Everything so far comes from looking directly, honestly and openly at what happens in immediate experience , in the immediate moment, doesn't it? And focus can always be bought to what is (or is not) here and now.

This guiding is not about aquiring any new beliefs. Aren't beliefs all thoughts ABOUT thoughts? Ideas about 'how things are, or should be'? Based on some arguement or deduction? In belief there is the need for 'faith' or trust that such and such an idea is 'right'. But that all belongs to the domain of thoughts, doesn't it?

Seeing through the illusion of 'self' and such things as 'choice' is not a matter of thought, is it?. Through various investigations it is not possible to find a seperate self, nor a 'chooser'. Doyou see? Thought doesn't do the looking so why expect thought to 'understand' or 'believe' what is seen?

So I thought to ask you, do I need to be clear on this? I get it in the moment of looking, that's it.

Well that is where it starts and finishes really. With looking. But we will make sure you have no doubts before this conversation concludes.

All the best,

Jon.

[marka]

Hi Jon,

have been pondering what you said.

Aren't beliefs all thoughts ABOUT thoughts? Ideas about 'how things are, or should be'? Based on some arguement or deduction? In belief there is the need for 'faith' or trust that such and such an idea is 'right'. But that all belongs to the domain of thoughts, doesn't it?

Hmm. This seems so absurd. Beliefs are simply thoughts based around an idea. Nothing more, no 'ownership' to them. In fact, potentially no real purpose to them either!

Seeing through the illusion of 'self' and such things as 'choice' is not a matter of thought, is it?.

It has involved a lot of thinking for me to get to the point of seeing the illusion of choice. But I know what you mean, the actual experience of it - no, that is not thought.

Through various investigations it is not possible to find a seperate self, nor a 'chooser'. Doyou see?

Yes, I see this.

Thought doesn't do the looking so why expect thought to 'understand' or 'believe' what is seen?

Yes! I get this! So what I am experiencing is simply an 'uncomfortableness' in thought!?

thanks Jon, not sure what I expect really,

Mark

[JonathanR]

Hi Mark,

Hmm. This seems so absurd. Beliefs are simply thoughts based around an idea. Nothing more, no 'ownership' to them. In fact, potentially no real purpose to them.

It does seem absurd, yes.

It has involved a lot of thinking for me to get to the point of seeing the illusion of choice. But I know what you mean, the actual experience of it - no, that is not thought.

Right. Looking at the actual experience of it, it's a kind of noticing, like 'seeing' clearly that 'choice' is just an idea that involves the story of an 'I' that 'chooses'?

Thought doesn't do the looking so why expect thought to 'understand' or 'believe' what is seen?


Yes! I get this! So what I am experiencing is simply an 'uncomfortableness' in thought!?

Quite possibly. Conventionally, when there are problems that need to be solved, thought routinely cranks into gear to 'solve' them and this approach goes unquestioned, maybe even unnoticed. But in an investigation such as this , where 'choice' and 'decisions' are scritinised directly, it seems natural habit for thought to start 'thinking up answers'.. Perhaps this may be what you mean by 'uncomfortableness'? (Thoughts working overtime?) But there are no thought-answers for these questions, there is only looking and noticing what is happening right here and now. That is quite a shift in perspective, isn't it?

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of 'self' and of 'chooser-decider'?

Best wishes,

Jon

Mark