my intellectual understanding isn't liberation

[bluzulu]

Stacy, I know you have a great deal of experience, are guiding many people, are very busy, and I thank you for all your time.

May I request to be guided by Vince Shubert now?

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. You're welcome.

My way isn't for everyone. I'll find out if Vince is available.

Much love

[vinceschubert]

Hey Pablo, what beliefs are there for you that indicate that i am an appropriate guide for you?

vince

[bluzulu]

more like a hope :-)
just that you've been doing this for a while, and Stacy's approach was not working for me.

apologies, but i will not be able to respond again until sunday evening or monday morning.

thank you!

[bluzulu]

i do hope you will have time to review the previous conversations with Stacy

may you be peaceful and happy!

[vinceschubert]

Review done. So now, how do we get all of that intellectual understanding translated into visceral experiencing?
Don't answer that. Any answer can only come from mind.
Right now, tell me what you are experiencing..

vince

[bluzulu]

thank you for the review and the excellent question.

now--seeing the screen, fingers typing, thoughts about what to type next, wondering what is the blue object about 2 o'clock on the Gate wave. a kayak?

no thoughts.
noticing the mess on my desk.

random thoughts,

recurring memories of a line i read 3 days ago in Ferris Jabr's book "Becoming Earth": life has reached a point at which it can ponder itself. something then clicked, and since then the deepening experience of being a node of awareness in life, a growing experience of all these thoughs and feelings as thoughts and feelings of the whole thing.

similar things have happened in the past..no inside no outside, the whole world breathing with these lungs, no 'me' doing it. but with still blame on others for 'wrong' behavior. in the last couple days that has changed for the first time.
ahhhh!
whew!

annoyance still arising, but compassion and love quickly prevailing.

signing off for now to clean my desk.

thank you.

[bluzulu]

incident today of someone thoughtlessly parking in a way to impede things difficult and potentially dangerous for others. accustomed feelings of annoyance, impulses to look for and give critical looks to the offender. thoughts of how to change that to love. thoughts of inelegant solutions to how to feel kind and loving to the "offender" arising and rejected. a couple hours later a realization that it is simply because loving and kindness is the best thing for the whole thing. an hour later just after fingers began typing this an actual feeling of love for the whole thing, the wood on my desk, a tube of glue, trees and clouds thru the window.

paz,
/p

[vinceschubert]

Hey Paz, we have to use words here. Not only words but typed words. (no voice inflection etc.) This makes it really dificult to talk about this stuff. What i need to 'know' is what you experience is when you use a phrase.
Do you 'get it' when i say that you experience the 'fact' that a thought exists, but the content is conceptual and you can't experience that but you do respond to the content?

thoughts of how to change that to love

response here is that although this seems appropriate, that if you were successful then it would be bypassing. https://open.substack.com/pub/vinceschu ... Share=true
What we want to see happening is a spontaneous response of acceptance & love.
On the way to this we can use the arising of annoyance to point us to beliefs that are behind identification.
Do you get that will power not only is a delusion but in attempting to use it you strengthen the resistance to 'what is'?

annoyance still arising, but compassion and love quickly prevailing.

Did this experience (feeling) of compassion extend to yourself?

It looks to me like you are in a good place and there is only some cleaning up to happen.
Tell me, what expectations exist about a line to be crossed or a finish?

much love

vince

[bluzulu]

Thanks Vince.
That deserves more consideration.
first response is that a self-identity of 'righter of wrongs' is quite familiar and comfortable, in spite of often having some doubts about it's righteousness :-).

developing the sklll of loving kindness just seemed much more important at that point today, like realizing slouching in my posture had been causing back pain and wasn't helping anybody. at first it was "because they have their own suffering", then it was "because they are conditioned to be that way, no self deciding to be that way", neither of which seemed to get to the heart of it.

then later, kind of out of the blue, was the realization that loving kindness is genuinely the most skillful approach to and for all sentient beings--which of course I'd been reading for years but was always overpowered by righteousness :-)

then typing earlier it just occurred, the feeling of love for the whole enchilada happening on it's own, including the thoughts and feelings of me-ness. that perspective/feeling has been dissipating somewhat since writing earlier, and reading your excellent substack showed that the desire to be metta was somewhat bypassing, or subtle avoidance as we call in in psychology. nonetheless a skill well worth developing.

and yes, seeing that trying is selfing has been so clear at times, along with perhaps weeks of experience that was believed to be liberation (albeit with the annoying and incoherent feelings of annoyance at others) has happened in the past. but dissipated.

what is happening now seems somehow more clear and calm, more 'natural', but given history is still not completely trusted :-)

/p

[bluzulu]

Yesterday all day seemed back to square one, disappointment, then lots of trying and frustration that the love wasn't happening. And seeing how very subtle trying can be. Haven't had a chance to listen to the recording of your latest online session "Control", but just the title came at a great time.

Today only rare episodes of trying, some wondering about how teachers often say something like "there's nothing the non-existent you can do" and then 'now do this" (e.g., look) and "don't do that " (e.g., pay attention to thinking). :-)

Knowing that it is just the confusing language; and some pondering of how the simplest thing in the world (all happening by itself) is so difficult to convey and remember and completely thoroughy accept.

Today more peace, acceptance, love.

Thanks Vince.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Paz,

a self-identity of 'righter of wrongs' is quite familiar and comfortable,

okay, he's a way in for us. A portal.
When you say it's a Self-identity, it's not the idea that you do "righting of wrongs" but your connection to that story. The common assumption is that the story and the action I connected or more accurately that the story is the cause of the action. So righting of wrongs can happen without the belief that it's a self that is doing it.
How do you tell if there's a Self doing it? (Rhetorical question) You look to the body.
The nature or flavour of the contraction will tell you. Is the contraction to do with the righting of the wrong, or is it to do with proving that you are a righter of wrongs?

developing the sklll of loving kindness

the skill in this is not the skill of loving kindness arising, but the skill in expressing it appropriately. It will arise spontaneously if there is no resistance to it or the need for ego enhancement doesn't displace it.
I certainly agree with you that it is appropriate in most interactions as a foundation.

at first it was "because they have their own suffering", then it was "because they are conditioned to be that way, no self deciding to be that way", neither of which seemed to get to the heart of it.

whatever it is that you perceive in "them" it is your interpretation filtered through your own experience, and thus it is your projection.

metta .... nonetheless a skill well worth developing

I agree, but once again emphasise that the skill is in expression, and the arising of metta is a matter of recognising what inhibits it.

has happened in the past. but dissipated.

https://vinceschubert.substack.com/p/the-return?r=qv9x

history is still not completely trusted

see above

seemed back to square one

see above above

some wondering about how teachers often say something like "there's nothing the non-existent you can do" and then 'now do this" (e.g., look) and "don't do that " (e.g., pay attention to thinking). :-)

yes, this is a classic problem with language. If you remove the emphasis from the doing of these things and reframe them as possible happenings, you'll get what was probably meant.

Today more peace, acceptance, love.

Beautiful
Hey Pablo, I would really like it if you could come to some of the zoom meetings. I have really great feelings about you. If you send me your email (vinceschubert@gmail.com) I will put you on the notification list or go to the webpage (1ness.info) and scroll down to the counters, There's a link there as well.

much love

vince

[bluzulu]

it's not the idea that you do "righting of wrongs" but your connection to that story. The common assumption is that the story and the action I connected or more accurately that the story is the cause of the action. So righting of wrongs can happen without the belief that it's a self that is doing it.

The first reaction was “no, that’s just how I’m made”. It didn’t take much consideration, however, to realize it was an identity that was unknowingly being protected. That is weirdly freeing. Thanks.

The nature or flavour of the contraction will tell you. Is the contraction to do with the righting of the wrong, or is it to do with proving that you are a righter of wrongs?

That will take some more observation. Seems to me that only the proving I’m a righter of wrongs would be a contraction. Maybe you can clarify.

not the skill of loving kindness arising, but the skill in expressing it appropriately. It will arise spontaneously if there is no resistance to it or the need for ego enhancement doesn't displace it.

Unfortunately not being the protector is probably more ego dystonic than enhancing. so I’ll watch for the resistance.

Again [metta] is in expression, and the arising of metta is a matter of recognising what inhibits it.

Wow, that would be welome!!

I certainly agree with you that it is appropriate in most interactions as a foundation.

Are you saying that metta for the overall suffering justifies harshness for some parts? If so, I agree but that would be a hard call in many situations. E.g., some of the cruelty happening in the U.S. right now.

whatever it is that you perceive in "them" it is your interpretation filtered through your own experience, and thus it is your projection.

Isn’t that the case with everything?

https://vinceschubert.substack.com/p/the-return?r=qv9x “exposure is part of deeper integration.”

Yes yes yes. The non-acceptance of what was happening 2 days ago reminded me of Alan Watts’ “Nirvana is right here, unless you object”. But at the time it seemed like the suffering was somehow a permanent state with only relatively short periods of perhaps illusory liberation. And there was dissatisfaction with that [insert ironically smiling icon here]

is a classic problem with language. If you remove the emphasis from the doing of these things and reframe them as possible happenings, you'll get what was probably meant.

I see “do this not that” in the above context as kinda speaking directly to the neuro-operating system vs the imaginary operator.

Thanks for the zoom invite, Vince. I have the dates and greatly appreciate how you have timed the meetings and included a link for people to calculate their local time, so that the most people globally can be available. Am looking forward to it! My email is bluzulu@gmail.com.

/p = Pablo
seeking paz :-)

[bluzulu]

Just noticed your cool count-down timer!

[bluzulu]

Wow. identity after identity showing up.
too many to track; maybe i will start writing them down.
holy cow!