Mountain over Mountain

[Anastacia42]

Nope, I can't find anything.

What if it is just a mystery? Unknowable?

How would that feel? (check your gut).

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
Hmmmm…

What if it is just a mystery? Unknowable?

Not my usual approach, but my direct experience suggests there is some mechanism that is ultimately unknowable.

How would that feel? (check your gut).

I laughed out loud! For quite a while.
There is a lot of thought content trying to label that unknowable thing and straining to make sense of how it works. But there is now an opening to that possibility.
Thank you,
Larry

[Anastacia42]

Yes, thoughts are persistently silly in that way.

Can you find any "self" anywhere?

Can you say 100% there is no self, just thoughts making it up?

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
Will reflect on this before answering tomorrow.
Thank you!
Larry

[Anastacia42]

Do not think (reflect) about it! LOOK with your eyes.

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

(if an ad plays, just skip it)

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
I guess you knew what was going on:

You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self -

I will conduct the investigation late today or tomorrow.
Thank you!
Larry

[Anastacia42]

: ) Yes I've done this a couple of times.

Stop paying attention to thoughts & LOOK.

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
Here are the results of my looking:

Does the sense of self have a location?

I have a ”feeling” that it is in my head behind my eyes. Is it sensation? Seems like pressure or a heaviness.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No. Whatever I “feel” is not able to be Seen or measured

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Thoughts arise in direct experience, but I cannot detect any communication or sounds from anything but sound or thoughts arising. I don’t see the thoughts arising from the sense of self as it seems to be separate from thoughts or a victim of thoughts.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

The sensation I feel seems to be a pulling or contraction

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

My intellect says it is a trick of thought, but I sense a sensation as described above.

What is found?

After the flipping hand experiment, I saw that there was no detectable subject moving the hand and had to use thought content to get around that. I suspect this is the same thing and there is no “findable” sense of self. Yet I am bound to be honest so I have to admit the ambiguity and confusion I am experiencing.
I appreciate the momentum of this direct approach.
Thank you,
Larry

[Anastacia42]

Larry, you have simply mistaken the lie feeling for a "self."

Back on the 4th you saw

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense

.

ANY contraction, including in your head indicates alie. As Byron Katie says, "If it hurts, you're lying."

You just wrote,

Seems like pressure or a heaviness.

The sensation I feel seems to be a pulling or contraction

Go back & read about the lie feeling. Test it with other known Lies to be sure.

Pernille calls it Body Yes & Body No. Please watch her video about what is going on here.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n6RnrkOD7 ... uBphAoK764

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,

Go back & read about the lie feeling. Test it with other known Lies to be sure.

Your discussion and the video really helped. The lying sensations may be being manipulated by a calculating ego, but the direct pointing and creating space for the investigation (even letting in some doubt) has led to more observation.

Does the sense of self have a location?

I cannot find a location with any direct observation. I think I feel the sensation of truth more liable than the sensations of lying, since those sensations are similar to the ones I label fear and anger. The”I” statements-without the “I” feel peaceful and expansive.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No, the voice in my head is thoughts arising and not coming from a sense of self.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

No. I can’t see it, hear it, or have a direct sensation from it.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

I am guessing an imaginary sense of self is made from thought.

What is found?

Although my mind is still fighting this, in truth I can find no sense of self.
I have caught this intellectually before, but there does seem more evidence now. Yet, the “I” has still not given up dominion despite mounting evidence it is just a knotted ball of thought!
Thanks for all of this remarkable dialogue and learning,
Larry

[Anastacia42]

You're seeing, but not believing.

“I” has still not given up dominion despite mounting evidence it is just a knotted ball of thought!

There is no "I" to give up anything - is there? Exactly where?

The”I” statements-without the “I” feel peaceful and expansive.

Yes. Keep looking at that - peaceful & expansive.

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Now try this. We may do this for a few days. The point of these pointers is not right answers. That's just thoughts. The point is to clearly SEE there's no "self." I can think of a "unicorn" all day but does that make a "unicorn" real?

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
Hard wirk day today, will respond tomorrow.
Thank you,
Larry

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,
I apologize for the additional delay. I spent time looking.

There is no "I" to give up anything - is there? Exactly where?

There is nothing perceived that is an I. It can’t be found.

Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

There is this sense of me that “feels” like a subject. Yet on
inspection, there is nothing perceived. I laughed when I listened to my thoughts and wondered who they were talking to!

I can think of a "unicorn" all day but does that make a "unicorn" real?

I initially just glossed over this, but then I got it. I’ve been thinking about “me” for ~ 70 years, but that doesn’t mean that me is real.

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.
Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

I looked several times for a long time. It is easy to get fooled by labels and concepts, but when one just allows the sensation to be without the thoughts, all there is - is that sensation with no division.
I’ll hold my questions about the value of labels until we do more experiments!
With appreciation,
Larry

[Anastacia42]

Yes! Good!

The value of labels and words is that they help us communicate with seeming others. They are a convenience that we kind of got carried away with.

There are other pointers but I want you to notice that this is not about right answers. This is about the experience of LOOKING and not thinking. So I'm going to ask you to keep doing butt chair for a few more days before we go on to anything else.

Tell me how it FEELS to see that there is no separate self.

Loving,

[Kwai9]

Dear Stacy,

So I'm going to ask you to keep doing butt chair for a few more days before we go on to anything else.

Tell me how it FEELS to see that there is no separate self.

Hmmm.
How does the butt chair looking relate to the feeling of no separate self?
Thank you,
Larry