Will Look Until Lost or Found

[graceabounds]

Happy New Year!

I think labelling experiential content as perceptions, thoughts, real, unreal, etc. may be useful for trying to clarify thought on the experience, but that labelling, too, may be a thinking trap. Ultimately, they *all* seem just "arisings" in awareness.

You are right. :)

Even these separations between direct experience and thought are themselves conceptual, or labels. It is like a ‘useful’ raft that can be discarded once you cross to the other shore. The raft we use here to clarify if there is a separate self anywhere.

So where are you with respect to that? Is it still the experience that there is a separate self? Is it clear there isn’t? What is the experience now?

-Becca

[Stultus]

So where are you with respect to that? Is it still the experience that there is a separate self? Is it clear there isn’t? What is the experience now?

On one hand experiences - perceptions, thoughts, etc. - arise without effort. Even this body being active, words being spoken, hands typing, etc. do not require any "doing" - awareness of these activities just arise. That's what arises upon examination and not falling back on habits of language.
A concept that you raised earlier - "personalization" - remains a stumbling block for me. When you ask a question, thoughts arise in response (at least while a response is being typed) and in that "mode" the thought arises that the perceptions, memories, thoughts, etc. all seem centred around, as you helpfully described it, the body and narrative of Steve. In invoking thought in response to questioning, thought appears unwilling to abandon the concept of self because of this apparent centre of gravity in the experiences that arise. The thought arises that some things may be hidden or inaccessible - and that direct self awareness of self might just be one of those inaccessible things, but the traces of such a self might be detectable in experience (as personalization) and provide clues to its existence.
The thought also arises that if such a self exists and if really is inaccessible to experience, I could hardly call it "my self" - it would seem to just be a concept of a self. It remains though that the continuity of personalization arises in thought as a puzzle to me.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Hi!

thought appears unwilling to abandon the concept of self

Unwilling: would suggest a do-er of thought.
Unable… Inseparable from…

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 10 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened).

What did you observe during and as a result of this exercise?

The thought also arises that if such a self exists and if really is inaccessible to experience, I could hardly call it "my self" - it would seem to just be a concept of a self. It remains though that the continuity of personalization arises in thought as a puzzle to me.

Is the continuity of personalization evidence of a self, or just a pattern of thought?

-Becca

[Stultus]

Hello Becca.
Just completed the exercise - twice, because I misunderstood the assignment the first time and was listing thoughts as they occurred. The second time I just put a mark under Self or Other.

What did you observe during and as a result of this exercise?

First run:
Formed a list under Other - nothing listed under Self. "hand on paper, background fan sound, audio, blinking green light, writing hand, hand holding pad, light of screens, feel of eyes, feel of forehead, crackle noise in head, shadow on paper, fan, blinking light, pause in writing, fan, lights, weight on chair, tension back of neck..."
Everything is on the Other list. Even: "thought arises 'How long now?'"
Second run:
Only a few marks under Other as awareness of visuals, sounds, etc. didn't really feel like thoughts. (These only felt like thoughts in the first round because they were being verbalized?)
One mark appears under the Self list as a thought arose referencing Self - a thought arose rehearsing or "wording" future writing about misunderstanding the assignment.
Writing about this, thought arises now that all the awarenesses that arose in the first round could have been "personalized" and listed under Self, ex. "I see my hand on paper, I hear a fan sound in the background, I see a blinking green light to my right, I see my hand writing..."
Thought arises I could shift any experience to the Self list in choosing to talk about it that way but that simple attentiveness (without describing what arises) naturally seems to occur as Other.
The thought arises that reporting of experience on this forum itself tends to shift me into personalization. I just wrote "thought arises I could shift any experience to the Self list". This post opens with "I misunderstood the assignment... I just put a mark..." Even lines such as "Formed a list" has a hidden "I". It does feel like a habit and convenience of language, though. Steve could write, "Steve wrote..." Though more accurately it should be, "thought arises internal dialog voicing as hands typing". Even use of "Steve" instead of "I" seems of limited use and only to provide proper context in this post and to shortcut through description unnecessary for communication. To avoid these shortcuts seems would provide only stream-of-conscious list of thoughts or sensations bobbing up into awareness. Thought arises that probably sounds like bs, hahaha. Sorry, if this is more convoluted than it need be. Thought arises this must be somewhat challenging to untangle.

Is the continuity of personalization evidence of a self, or just a pattern of thought?

This is useful. Thank you. It is just a pattern of thought. More precisely, it is just a thought of pattern of thought.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Haha, perfect, this is all perfect! :)

The thought arises that reporting of experience on this forum itself tends to shift me into personalization. I just wrote "thought arises I could shift any experience to the Self list".

This is what is meant by seeing no self as a shift in perception. There all along. A habit of thought to self reference. To interpret. Unnecessary as it turns out.

Formed a list under Other - nothing listed under Self. "hand on paper, background fan sound, audio, blinking green light, writing hand, hand holding pad, light of screens, feel of eyes, feel of forehead, crackle noise in head, shadow on paper, fan, blinking light, pause in writing, fan, lights, weight on chair, tension back of neck..."
Everything is on the Other list. Even: "thought arises 'How long now?'"

Is it possible to just marinate in this… the direct experience?
To let go of figuring out/analyzing/interpreting?
To ‘go direct’?
What emerges?

There is nothing to understand. And no one to understand it. Its just this.

-Becca

[Stultus]

Is it possible to just marinate in this… the direct experience?
To let go of figuring out/analyzing/interpreting?
To ‘go direct’?
What emerges?

Hahaha. Thought arises "What will Steve and Becca have to talk about?"
Will do and update tomorrow.
-Steve

[Stultus]

Is it possible to just marinate in this… the direct experience?
To let go of figuring out/analyzing/interpreting?
To ‘go direct’?
What emerges?

Periods of great quietude today even though environment or activity wasn't quiet. Like all events experienced at arms length. During work day, disengagement this thoughts/sensations faded in and out. At times experience was immersive, at others, not. Thought arose: This is too easy. And thought arose: Too easy for whom? Thought arose: I am perhaps short-cutting. Thought arose: Who's short-cutting? From where? To where? There is nothing but here-now, this, constantly emerging. Dull headache end of day, faded in and out of awareness with shift of focus. Difficult to capture the day as a lot of it was without internal narration and logging it now applies words that weren't there. Like hands typing silently speaking this is generating/provoking the days past events, though just now. Thought arises: This sounds pretentious, unbelievable. Counter-thought: just is. Hands type, internal dialog: Hope this makes sense to you.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Excellent.

‘Too easy’… haha. Great.
Certainly there is ease, simplicity, here in just what is arising. Without the baggage of identifying and all the associated resistance.

Headache is quite normal actually. There is a lot of restructuring going on in there… a shift in perception, seeing without the self-filter, simple but profound.

Thought arose: This is too easy. And thought arose: Too easy for whom? Thought arose: I am perhaps short-cutting. Thought arose: Who's short-cutting? From where? To where? There is nothing but here-now, this, constantly emerging.

This is beautiful. Exactly how to look at thoughts.

Let’s give it another day of the same tomorrow. See if there is a relaxing into THIS, further deepening, seeing, opening. If not a work day perhaps take a walk outside, Looking at nature.

:)
-Becca

[Stultus]

Hello Becca.
Memory this morning, last morning, previous morning, long stretches of awareness during the night the last few nights. Memory of dream, memory of lying (awake?) in darkness, occasional thought bobbing up. No emotion attached, no urgency or stress to fall asleep. Memory of multiple long stretches of just awareness in darkness, occasional blank periods. Memory of dreams, thought of dream recall increase. This has been going on the last few nights. Thought: doesn't feel like lacking any sleep, feel rested.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Hi Steve,

Yes. The process is processing itself at all levels: wake, dream, deep sleep. Nothing to do, just be. Flow. Allow is even too strong a word because it suggests an allower. :)

When something arises to be examined or looked at, like a sticking point in this, just write. Here to hold space.

-Becca

[Stultus]

Thank you, Becca! -Steve

[graceabounds]

Hi Steve,
Just checking in. :)
Here to support if/as needed.
With love,
Becca

[graceabounds]

Hello Steve,

Been a little while, in calendar time, or no time at all depending on the point of view. :)

Is there still seeking?
Has that fallen away?
Is there anything that is now ripe to be examined?

In gratitude,
-becca

[Stultus]

Thank you, Becca.
Yes, there is no seeking.
There is a play of what I would call expansion and contraction.
At times the perspective is very broad, or feels very large. At others, it is like thoughts and experiences arise as though through a funnel, more focused.
Emotions arise but are more likely those of curiosity or light humour than stress or similar (though those, too, still arise), though this has often been my nature.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.

Yes emotions arise naturally, and without a ‘self’ to anchor on and create stories it is simply what is happening now. Part of the ebb and flow you describe.

Anything you would like to continue exploring in this space or do you feel ‘complete’ at this time?

Much love,
Becca