Please help me push through

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks for this, I'll have a look over the weekend.

Thanks and best wishes

With love
Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Sorry for the long delay in responding. I've had quite a busy week with my parents being over and then catching up on work.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't and there never was it is just an idea which was playing a central part in my life.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There are various illusions, the illusion that the "I" is seeing, acting, deciding and thinking. When I sit here, looking, listening feeling, thinking, and feeling of separation all these sensations they all seem very near and immediate, there doesn't feel like much separation. If then "I" focus on a particular thing with a purpose in mind for example to draw an picture on some paper, then when performing this activity with this purpose in mind then there is a gap and feeling of separation. Which seems to be that "the activity is in relation to this purpose / desire, which creates the separation".

There is also a feeling of "I" in relation to the present moment. That the "I" is constantly interfering in it, which is really not the "I" but some kind of anxiety or fear which is assumed to be "I". Sometimes this feeling of the "I" interfering in the present moment dissapates and then everything flows together which is very nice. Once this happened for a whole day, when I had the fancy that I was living in the past, then this urge to intefere in the present evaporated.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

I feel very relaxed and am much much more centered in feelings rather than thoughts. The interest in the content of thoughts is much less than before. It's clear that most thoughts are an expression or an abstraction of some feeling or unresolved problem and slowly I'm able to see what emotions are triggering various thought processes. A big one now, are arrogant thoughts which are repeating well worn beliefs to myself and which are very quick to assume knowledge and authority. Often when seeing how arrogant and ignorant these thoughts are, they are naturally dropped and very strong anger or sadness comes to the surface.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?
There were various things which pushed me forward:

Performing this exercise of seeing, that there is no see-er performing the act of seeing. From no see-er it was then not long until no doer and no thinker also became clear.
A big one was understanding that this interest in watching mental processes was born out of a feeling of inadequacy, that these thoughts and feelings are somehow wrong and have to be monitored.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision - I have no idea, you observe and you have a feeling of what you should do and or there is a thought saying "I should do X"
Intention - I would say this is a feeling when observing something that motivates action
Free will - There is no free will, there is no choice, just the illusion of choice.
Control - There is no control there is just the illusion of control. thoughts happen, actions happen, everything interacts with everything else.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
I have no idea


7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am responsible for nothing, not my past, not my mistakes, not my successes, not my future. Responsibility assumes control and there is none.


8) Anything to add?
No thank you

Thanks and with love
Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I noticed a confusing copy/paste error in the text above. I don' think you can edit previous posts.

Here is the text below to the second answer with " and feeling of separation" removed.

There are various illusions, the illusion that the "I" is seeing, acting, deciding and thinking. When I sit here, looking, listening feeling, thinking, all these sensations they all seem very near and immediate, there doesn't feel like much separation. If then "I" focus on a particular thing with a purpose in mind for example to draw an picture on some paper, then when performing this activity with this purpose in mind then there is a gap and feeling of separation. Which seems to be that "the activity is in relation to this purpose / desire, which creates the separation".

[Elad]

Hi Scott! Thank you, clearly there is a great movement from intellectualization to looking and feeling. At the same time there is a sense there still might be some holding on to some sense of I. Let's look...

there doesn't feel like much separation

Is there any separation at all? If yes, between what and what?

It's clear that most thoughts are an expression or an abstraction

Are any thoughts not an abstraction?


If Angelo Dillulo (or another teacher you respect) said that seeing through self and waking up has not happened with you... What is your reaction?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Is there any separation at all? If yes, between what and what?

It was my way of writing, not to be so absolute about it. So it wasn't very clear. There is no feeling of separation there is just the various sensations.

Are any thoughts not an abstraction?

Yes, all thoughts are an abstraction, I also should have written this more strongly.

If Angelo Dillulo (or another teacher you respect) said that seeing through self and waking up has not happened with you... What is your reaction?

I would ask them what they mean and why they said it and listen carefully as the person is most likely pointing out some attachments which are driving behavior. But I know it's just attachement to concepts per-se, no self is involved in that process. Even though all attachment relates to the concept of self in some manner or some other concept which is in opposition or in support of the concept of self.

Thanks
With love

Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, thank you! Now I will share this with other guides to offer their perspectives and questions to support the process.

[Elad]

Hmm on second thought, before we go to that, lets look at this:

There is also a feeling of "I" in relation to the present moment. That the "I" is constantly interfering in it, which is really not the "I" but some kind of anxiety or fear which is assumed to be "I".

1) You say that really it is some kind of anxiety or fear, but then is it still experienced as "a feeling of I in relation to the present moment"? If yes, what exactly makes it a feeling of I?

2) If after looking at that, it still feels like "a feeing of I" is there, please spend the next day or few days *really inviting the illusion of I, me, Scott, myself - to be formed as totally as possible*. Kind of like suspending disbelief when watching a movie, so you can experience it as deeply as possible, and not think it is just make belief and images on a screen.

When the illusion feels most real (maybe also with relation to specific relationships, dreams, success/failure, issues) really look what is the form of the illusion and where is this form experienced?


Let me know the effects of this exploration.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks for the suggestions.

What an unpleasant day I had today. Last night I was sitting along in the livingroom inviting some feelings of sadness to come up which I felt were there. I've built up an expectation that I can sit with feelings for a long time and then something changes and the feeling seem to evaporate. I sat with this feeling of sadness for a while and then went to bed. It's not that I think "I" can do something about this sadness, but rather taking time to feel properly things which I am aware of during the day, but am too busy to properly experience.

The next day I woke up and was have quite neurotic thought patterns, very much focused on the concept of "Scott" and feelings of sadness and fear. I think there was a disapointment that this feeling of sadness yesterday was not fully realized.

I was in a self enclosed loop which lasted most of the day very much focused on "Scott" and then experiencing feelings of sadness which would be judged in terms of "Scott" bringing "Scott" front and center again. Eventually I had an hour where I could lie in bed and relax and this slowly settled.

1) You say that really it is some kind of anxiety or fear, but then is it still experienced as "a feeling of I in relation to the present moment"? If yes, what exactly makes it a feeling of I?

This anxiety or fear is best described as a feeling of needing to "interfere in the present moment" or "to be on guard in the present moment", I'm sure it's something that everybody has. I've had it for a very long time and has been associated to the sense of "I" for a very long time. I now know that there is no "I" there, there is just the anxiety and fear on it's own. But being aware of the familiar anxiety / fear at the same time as other stimuli in the present moment brings this feeling of separateness. Thats what I mean by "a feeling of I in relation to the present moment".

Sometimes, rarely this anxiety / fear drops and everything if flowing very nicely, all "external" and "internal" stimui . Once I had a city day to myself and the idea popped into my head that I was living in the past and everything just flowed so nicely because there was the implicit understanding that you can't change the past no matter what you do, so this urge to be alert or on guard was completely gone.

When the illusion feels most real (maybe also with relation to specific relationships, dreams, success/failure, issues) really look what is the form of the illusion and where is this form experienced?

I will try this, thanks

With love
Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Just a further remark.

As I understand it, with Liberation Unleashed, the purpose is not that this feeling of "I" should dissapear, but that the feeling of "I" is just a feeling, it is not "Scott with all his history". I see this feeling of "I" as a feeling of separateness which occurs if sensations are being experienced / evaluated through the lens of an intention or an idea. This feeling of separateness then drops when sensations are experienced directly without any intention or idea behind it

[Elad]

Thanks for sharing Scott, good process...

Certainly reactivity doesn't tend to dissapear with seeing through the separate self.

As I understand it, with Liberation Unleashed, the purpose is not that this feeling of "I" should dissapear, but that the feeling of "I" is just a feeling, it is not "Scott with all his history".

The key thing is:


Is it absolutely chrystal clear that this feeling/contraction/nervousness in no way is truly a an agent, an experiencer, a self?

Is the thought that the label I truly IS this feeling or any other thought or sensations clearly seen as inherently constructed and illusory, at best a practical illusion for purposes of communication. Is this clear as light on a sunny day?



I am checking if the seeing that there is no self is experienced as clearly self evidently experiential.

I see this feeling of "I" as a feeling of separateness which occurs if sensations are being experienced / evaluated through the lens of an intention or an idea. This feeling of separateness then drops when sensations are experienced directly without any intention or idea behind it

So this could sound like describing the territory of working with reactivity, which often comes after LU work. But we wanna make absolutely clear, that there is no belief in a separate self hiding here.

Looking forward to hear your experience delving into the "suspend disbeief" exploration.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Thanks for the explanation. I like the word contraction very much.

I hope to write in more detail on Monday or Tuesday.

[Elad]

🙏

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I've managed somewhat to try this suspension of disbelief. Early this week I was focusing strongly on something else a bit, but it led me a bit in this direction.

I've read and watched Krishnamurti for years, but I usually consume something in pretty small doses and often I get very carried away by things and my brain wants to push, push, push to achieve an understanding - which is not helpful - because it's just a chasing a strongly desired concept which naturally causes contractions.

So I said to myself there is absolutely no point in reading anything like this, it's like offering Vodka to an alcoholic (ok, I came up with that right now). There is no point in consuming content if there is this greedy, compulsive, neurotic response to it. So I have been slowly feeling out this feeling, which is driving this greedy neurotic impulses, which seems to go back a long way with me and feels to be my main mode of operating.

I'd describe it as.

- Primarily nervous
There is the need to compensate, to act in opposition to some kind of negative input, (criticism or a row). This seems to be the root to why my brain is so happy to grab some offered solution and to run with it, to use it to achieve this compensation.

- Also Angry - this nervousness which feels high strung can easily switch to anger, at times I would REALLY lose my temper as a kid.

Some memories come up of primary School or being young of feeling this way.

Sometimes, I can really feel this nervousness or anger from head to toe and feel also really awkward. This feeling also feels very familar from when I was young.

Last night, I was trying this exercise to suspend belief and personalise these feelings and get more emotional about it, but I didn't get very far that way. I was always aware that these are feelings on their own which have existed but haven't been properly felt for a long time.

Going into this also clarifies my senses somewhat too making me more naturally aware of my environment without forcing it. I hope that these feelings continue to come up, so I can explore it further.

Thanks

With love

Scott

[Elad]

Thank you for this deep sharing Scott, sounds like a very productive process working with emotion and reactivity...

Is it absolutely clear to you that there is no doer or owner to any of this or anything else?

If there is any doubt or uncertainty, what is it?

When you watch Krishnamurti, are you still seeking some other awakening? If yes, what awakening?

[Scotty]

Is it absolutely clear to you that there is no doer or owner to any of this or anything else?

I feel there is a responsibility to clear things up, so that present actions are not dictated by past unresolved issues. If I would say explicitly "I have a job to do, I should look into this feeling further". Making such a statement brings with it a sense of ownership - but that it just the words doing that and I don't say such things to myself anway. I know it is just "thought thinking", I'm fully aware that the "I" is not a part of any process.

If there is any doubt or uncertainty, what is it?

I feel much less doubt and uncertanty, because I know that all past problems etc, even ones which I made out to be really complicated come from very simple feelings.

When you watch Krishnamurti, are you still seeking some other awakening? If yes, what awakening?

Now that I feel the "I" is just a concept, I feel it opens a door to being aware and coming to an understanding of feelings and behavior. I lilke watching Krishnamurti because he speaks so clearly on so many issues and also points out traps which are easy to fall into. But as I said, I don't want to think about Krishnamurti at all just now, because, these nervous impulses in me grab what he says and runs a marathon.

With love
Scott