Seeker123

[Elad]

Good process!

Regarding question (3):

Can the labels themselves effect what is directly experienced prior to labels, or is it rather that labeling process, and the especially the degree to which labels are believed to be reality, becomes a part of the "next moment" and how that is experienced?

[Noselfplzthx]

[/quote]
Can the labels themselves effect what is directly experienced prior to labels, or is it rather that labeling process, and the especially the degree to which labels are believed to be reality, becomes a part of the "next moment" and how that is experienced?

Ooohhh… yes! Seems that the labels create the feelings or rather the belief about the labels and that seems to take me out of the present moment.

[Noselfplzthx]

Good, continue to notice everything unfold by itself, including wishes, habits, needs...

Try this exercise

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, there no real dimensions

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No. Doesn’t feel like that can be experienced

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. Just pulsing some sensations but just there.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No just like melts together or seems like no boundaries

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

N/a

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

I couldn’t sense “body” my only response would be the pulsing/digestion sensations other than that couldn’t find body

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Was a lot to take in so I’ll probably try this several more times … I’ll follow up if I find more (or less) 🙏🏻

You can answer all questions here but don't have to. Importantly give the answer that shows what is truly seen when doing these explorations.

[Elad]

Beautiful. Let me know how things continue unfolding...

And please watch this short video on using the quote function and start using it properly:

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=9v5DpXT35yVhgmgH

[Noselfplzthx]

I tried to meditate for a hour this morning and couldn’t get there. Lots of rumination.

there’s a knot in my tummy (a lot lately). So it’s the “feeling of anxiety” and thoughts.

When I’m in meditation it feels calm and relaxed no sensations like a knot in the stomach and no sticky thoughts.

I assumed the thoughts make the anxiety but is it the labeling of the sensation in my body that kicks up the thoughts?

Then the doubt questioning loop of the “no self/no body” continuous to kick up and it’s absolute insanity. Really hard to function.

Any help?

[Elad]

I would concentrate for a while on the anxiety. Just feel it, breath with it, invite it to be there, invite it to tell you what it wants to protect, tell it it is allowed to be there as long as it wants. Be loving with it. And be kind with yourself, listen to what feels loving and kind with yourself. Breath with it, journal with it - whatever helps you relax and listen with kindness to it. Spend some time with this, then let me know how it goes.

It is not unusual for strong feelings to kick in. Some people need other kinds of work, more like therapy, which this is not a replacement for. But for other people, just doing like I said above can do beautiful things and this is an opportunity to get to know and process feelings and aspects of experience.

Did you meet with Kento yet? When you do, please let me know how it is.

[Noselfplzthx]

Hi! I never met with Kento. I’ve been just trying to rest in awareness/mediation. Feeling very peaceful and continue to examine but unsure where to go from here. I keep practicing your recommendations but nothing new to note. Wanted to check in and get your suggestion

[Elad]

Good to hear from you. And sounds good, allowing the process to happen and reveal itself.

What is unsure where to go and what is examining experience? Any examiner? Any "unsurerer"? Any doer? Any observer?

Here is an exercise for you:


"Just Sitting/Laying/Walking"

For the next day practice several periods of just sitting, just walking or just laying. Duration can be everything from 5 minutes to as much as fits the flow. Just play with it. Let it be clear: It is not about not having thoughts or feelings during those periods. Everything will be as it will be - all good. It's just that during those periods the only "choice" is to sit or walk or lay. Try doing at least one period in solitude (for example alone in your room) and at least one period in a public space, for example sitting in a cafe or walking in a crowded park.

Let me know what is experienced.

[Elad]

Hi! It's been a while - how are things moving?

[Noselfplzthx]

Hi thank you for checking in. Overall peaceful. I’ve been “just walking” “just laying” as much as possible. I had a strange (?) experience last night couldn’t really write about it but seems like it was not me. I can’t say I have no doubts or that I can truly understand/know anything at this point so I’ve been trying to just follow the guidance you’ve provided until that happens. Suggestions?

[Elad]

Sounds good!

If it feels possible to describe your experience more, just as concrete as possible, that might be helpful.

You write you can't say that there is no doubt.

Can you say that there is doubt?

If yes, please describe the content of the doubt - thoughts and sensations - as clear as possible

[Noselfplzthx]

I am reluctant to share details publicly but there’s been a couple of times recently where I felt like things (energy? Emotions? Outbursts?) were coming up and out of me with no force or conjuring of it and seemingly no reason for it and there was no “emotional” attachment to it like not a strong story. I felt more like the observer and i wanted to label it as scary but it didn’t really feel scary. Not usually reluctant to share but the details feel private too personal and “odd” to share in detail. They’ve happened in stillness and pretty immediate after simple resting in awareness, not deep mediation. I’ve never had those types of experiences until recently so while they feel incredibly unfamiliar there’s an okayness to it all. I guess almost like without a veil of judgement, or who or what is right or normal or acting from a particular pattern of identity it just felt like a natural (but from somewhere deep) release/play/expression.

I can’t say there is a doubt. I guess overall what I seem to be experiencing is the flow of life and events and things and lessons and ease and trust and peace and even unpleasantness feels totally fine. I can’t find “I” conceptually and I can’t say that I don’t see myself as a separate self. I almost think what I’m saying here is contradictory. The doubt for me seems to stem from subject/object. While I see how everything is in one fluid motion I. haven’t experienced that I am not separate from things and people. Again, seemingly contradictory but I guess there may be an expectation that it would feel (sense) something more clear and obvious. There definitely doesn’t feel like I could ever operate from a constricted mindset again believing there are shoulds or shouldn’ts or things in my control (although my behavior feels in my control?) lol none of this makes any sense but I’m rolling with free writing here… 🙃

[Elad]

This is great.

The energy stuff sounds like kundalini to me and recognizeable. Just enjoy it. If you get any symptoms that seem disturbing, you might do a medical check up to be on safe side (it has its place) and consult with someone specializing in kundalini as well. For what it's worth none of this sounds farren or unusual to me, in as much detail as you gave. Energy stuff happens with awakening process - for many of us.

As for paradoxes, sure. As I just wrote someone else: "Just because no "winder" is doing the wind, it doesn't mean the wind doesn't blow. Just because no controller is doing the control, it doesn't mean there is no controlling. And neither need for us to have a good explanation for them, in order for them to show up".

As for subject and object, for many, the sense of that does not go away with seeing through separate self as agent/controller/doer. It might come later. But for now you can look into:

Can you actually localize anything objective that is separate from awareness, or anything subjective ("awarensss") that is separate from experience? Or is there just experience?

Now you wrote:

I can’t say that I don’t see myself as a separate self

Look closely at that.


In what sense do you see yourself as maybe a separate self?

And finally:

The experiencing you descibe sounds pretty liberated.

Does it feel that way? If not, how not? If yes, can you remember a moment where things shifted to be that way?

[Noselfplzthx]

Can you actually localize anything objective that is separate from awareness, or anything subjective ("awarensss") that is separate from experience? Or is there just experience?

It’s all awareness. Whatever is in awareness is. Just experience. Everything is happening in awareness. I am inside of awareness and I am aware of awareness.

Now you wrote:
I can’t say that I don’t see myself as a separate self
Look closely at that.In what sense do you see yourself as maybe a separate self?

there is just awareness, that building is in awareness my body is in awareness. I am and aware of awareness. there is a separate entity (body) than the building and at the same time it’s all in one thing- awareness/“the movie”

And finally: The experiencing you descibe sounds pretty liberated.Does it feel that way? If not, how not? If yes, can you remember a moment where things shifted to be that way?

I feel like seeking has dropped. I don’t feel a desire to know more. I feel incredible compassion for everything and feel like all thought processes and constructs are comically insane lol. I feel a complete trust and knowing that it’s all “working out”. Many things have dropped - wanting people to understand me, wanting to understand, attempting to control, everything feels still calm and like I can finally settle into my own experience with unconditional freedom to play. It feels like it has been a gradual unfolding but since working with you one big shift was closing my eyes, seeing vastness and feeling omnipresence. While I can’t say I’ve had that exact feeling again since then I can get out of thoughts and into awareness immediately without struggle. I drop into the body without judgement of sensations. Immediately after the experience I mentioned I had a few situations that envoked stress and it seemingly couldn’t stick wasn’t buying the story rather felt like the story needed to play out almost like an end to a cycle. J would describe the kundalini in the same way in that energy feeled repressed and came out to express itself came and went. It feels like with awareness I am actually in control in a different way an unattached organic way that recognizes it’s all working out. Feels that things are within my creation and simultaneously the creation is perfect. My whole life was based on seeking and helping and now it just needs that my natural expression and being is more helpful than anything I could effort towards. The loss of seeking lost it’s potent energy but not its curiosity and wonder. 😭😌. That’s all I’ve got for now. 🙏🏻

[Noselfplzthx]

I did the quotes wrong, I’m sorry!!