Creating clarity

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Yes ok, I will reply in more detail from now on.

1. Can you see a entity making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body? 

I cannot see an entity making me leave the bed. I don't know where the "decision" comes from. Is it my brain? I am normally completely switched off, my body is just moving and I don't remember how I get to breakfast sometimes. Sometimes, I want to sleep in, a lot. I can't get myself out of bed. Why? I don't know what decides that I want to sleep in today and tomororw I will wake up on time. The biology of my body? Requiring a certain amount of rest? Then once that is achieved, like a battery, I am good to switch on and go? I had a thought that is the conditiong of the brain that makes me get up. After years of conditioning myself, my body knows to get up at a certain time. Perhaps if I did affirmations or gratitude exercises before going to sleep, then I will have a good rest and wake up on time. A 'you' definitely doesn't command the body. I am always half asleep and not in control at all. Perhaps the expectation of knowing that I 'should' get up, I 'have' to get up. I have things to do and it's socially unacceptable to stay in bed all day. That's what makes me get up? But the thoughts and things to do changes everyday. So when I have things to do I get up. However, when I have a lot of things to do, I also choose NOT to get up and sleep in. What is in control? All of what I said seems like a ramble to be able to explain it all.

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

I can't choose to fall asleep. Sometimes, when I know I have to get up early the next day I have the hardest time falling asleep, eventhough I try and try and try to make myself sleep. It's impossible to find the moment where I choose to fall asleep. By then, I am completely unconscious. I would be so curious to witness it, but I can't.

3. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus? Did you choose to get angry or anxious?

I cannot choose the next emotion that will arise. I really, really wish I could because the emotion jealousy is one that I really hate. When it arises I wish to push it away, ignore it, bury it, I am so embarrassed about that emotion. I have no control over when it arises though. I am looking at what is happening when I am jealous. I can't choose the emotion, it just arises in response to a stimulus. I did not choose to get angry, anxious or jealous.

Can responsibility and free will be found in DE? What are you responsible for?

Wow! No, responsibility and free will cannot be found in DE!!! Everything is just arising, and arising, and arising. I am not responsible for any of it. I am just in this stream of processes. I am just apart of it. This is freeing and wonderful. And also, very humbling and grounding. It's just the way it is and there is nothing more to that.

Thank you Rali!

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Yes ok, I will reply in more detail from now on.

Thank you! It might seem that you provide more material to be “caught” but it’s always better to make sure that there are no unchecked beliefs

I cannot see an entity making me leave the bed. I don't know where the "decision" comes from. Is it my brain?... The biology of my body?

What is a “brain” in DE? How is it experienced?
What is a “body” in DE? Do sensations have needs or biology?

I don't know what decides that I want to sleep in today and tomororw I will wake up on time. The biology of my body? Requiring a certain amount of rest? Then once that is achieved, like a battery, I am good to switch on and go?

It seems like you are trying to find an answer through thinking and not by looking… Look! Is there such a thing as a ‘control room’ where all is decided? Where in you is it? Where is the place where everything is monitored? Is there an entity that monitors what is going on, that adjusts decisions and actions when something is not going well? Are there such processes happening in DE? It should all be there, plain and simple, observable, without any doubt.
Is there a decision at all or things are just happening? If cause and effect can only be found in thought, what is really there? Sleep is happening or not. Is there a decision about it at all? Or just a description/story of what is happening or not, what should be happening instead? Also, what is “sleep” in DE?

I cannot choose the next emotion that will arise. I really, really wish I could because the emotion jealousy is one that I really hate. When it arises I wish to push it away, ignore it, bury it, I am so embarrassed about that emotion. I have no control over when it arises though. I am looking at what is happening when I am jealous. I can't choose the emotion, it just arises in response to a stimulus. I did not choose to get angry, anxious or jealous.

We can explore emotions in more detail if you want…
We can also explore time and memories (in relation to sleep)

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your guiding!

What is a “brain” in DE? How is it experienced?
What is a “body” in DE? Do sensations have needs or biology?

Brain:
Thought about brain, simply = thought (thinking)
What I am referring to is only experienced as a thought. I cannot see "my" brain. I see, so brain is a concept here. It's an imaginary thing that I am referring to. So to say my brain wakes me up is not true.

Body:
Seeing body, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling body, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling body, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing body, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about body, simply = thought (thinking)

So body itself is not an entity with it's own decisions and personality or "boss". It is just colour, smell, sensation, sound, thought. Nothing else. So it can't possibly be choosing how much sleep to have and when to wake up.
 
Sensations do not have needs or a biology. Sensations are just sensations. So what needs sleep then?! Why do we sleep!


Ok I keep going to thinking! Thank you for pointing out that I am not 'looking.'

Is there such a thing as a ‘control room’ where all is decided? Where in you is it? Where is the place where everything is monitored? Is there an entity that monitors what is going on, that adjusts decisions and actions when something is not going well? Are there such processes happening in DE?

There is no 'control room' as I mentioned above, that there is no "boss" of the body. The 'control room' is not in me at all as far as I know from DE. It would just be me conceptualising or describing or thought. There is no place where everything is monitored. Haha like the 'control monitor' in the Pixar film Inside Out? From all the enquiries we have done I see that there is no control to anything. Not thoughts, body, smells, sounds etc. There is no such entity that monitors what is going on. If I LOOK only from DE, I cannot find it. No, there are no such processes happening in DE.

Is there a decision at all or things are just happening? If cause and effect can only be found in thought, what is really there?

Things are just happening. I have seen this from all the enquiries we have done. What is really there is just colour (seeing), smell (smelling), sensation (feeling), taste (tasting), sound (hearing), thought (thinking). Things keep arising and arising and arising in this moment, this moment and this moment.

Is there a decision about it at all? Or just a description/story of what is happening or not, what should be happening instead? Also, what is “sleep” in DE?

There is no decision about sleep. I didn't consider sleep a description/story. I thought it just was a fact. But yes, now that I look again, it is just a concept being described/labelled as sleep. Sleep is either happening or it's not happening and that's all there is to it. Right, nothing should be happening instead, sleep just is. It is what it is.

Sleep:
Thought about sleep, simply = thought (thinking)

When I consider my own sleep, not witnessing someone else, then sleep is just thought! Am I missing something here? Does sleep also involve the other parts of DE? If sleep is just a thought/label/story then, what are we actually doing when we sleep? Am I going around in circles? I am on retreat and starting to get tired and tired of thinking and being logical. If sleep is something that is just happening, then is eating something that is just happening? I explain eat and sleep as essential things to keep me alive. But according to DE these are just a label and sleeping and eating is just whatever they are.


Ok, yes let's explore emotions in more detail. And time and memories in relation to sleep too please.

Thank you Rali!

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Wonderful looking!

I am on retreat and starting to get tired and tired of thinking and being logical.

Great! Thought goes in circles struggling to explain the unexplainable, trying to put all the new information into neat little squares, exhausting itself in the process like a popped balloon :)
“Mind” thinks that it has to understand and control everything, because it thinks that is its job. It thinks. But is thought really in charge of life? Mind is afraid of losing its job micromanaging the universe. Like it can really do that?! Be kind to the mind. Let it know that you appreciate it. It does what it is supposed to be doing. “Allow” it to step down from the manager of the Universe position and return to just being. That kindness creates space/a gap where everything is experienced and leads to an opening. See if doing these things makes a difference for you.

Let’s explore first time and memories and hopefully sleep will be seen as it is…

When I consider my own sleep, not witnessing someone else, then sleep is just thought! Am I missing something here? Does sleep also involve the other parts of DE? If sleep is just a thought/label/story then, what are we actually doing when we sleep?

Sleep:
Thought about sleep, simply = thought (thinking)

What thought tells us about sleep is that we close our eyes and there is either mental images (“dream”) or nothing (“deep sleep”). That nothing can take up to 5-6 hours or more - the clock shows a difference. BUT let’s see what is really happening by exploring time and memories…

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all)
somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment
(now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward
on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

How can time not exist if there are memories of yesterday, last year, 10 y ago??
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought. Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has
happened?
You can also look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?
So LOOK carefully (don’t draw logical conclusions) and see how sleep is experienced next time. Please share your insights. While you are there see - what experiences "sleep"? Is there a sleeper?

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you so much for this!

But is thought really in charge of life?

No, thoughts are not in charge of life at all. They come and go, in no logical order, whenever they like, I can't control them. Like clouds in the sky.

Like it can really do that?! 

Haha! Right, it can't do that and has been thinking it can. What an illusion, a delusion! Ok, I will be kind to the mind instead of thinking it is dumb, not wise, not enlightened, too scattered. Of course, it is scattered! I find it fun to see all the thoughts come out of like a jack in the box and after a while thoughts just blend into incomprehensible noise and blur and buzz. I will be kind to it though! Ok I will "allow" it to step down from the manager of the Universe position. Thank you.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

I cannot detect an experience of the 'now' moving along the line of time. I just sense a moment and a moment and a moment. There is no experience of one moment giving away to the next moment. It's all just happening now. No there is no direct experience of one event following the other. The 'present moment' as I saw from previous enquiries is not moving. It is just now. When I look at this 'moment' I cannot find a point where it began. The 'now' doesn't last. It just is..forever? The 'now' doesn't have a start or end. It is happening always. The moment the 'now' becomes the 'past'...when I look, I see no 'past'. It's all a process right now. The 'past' in actual experience is a thought. There is no actual experience of time. Only thoughts about 'time'!

How can time not exist if there are memories of yesterday, last year, 10 y ago??

That's a good question. Not sure how to answer it yet.

Perhaps I may do DE for this?

Time:
Thought about time, simply = thought (thinking)

Bear with me! Just wanted to try that out. So yes, time is just a thought. If it doesn't exist then, yes how can there be memories from the 'past'.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has
happened?

Let me try DE to get my head around it.

Memory:
Seeing memory, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling memory, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling memory, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting memory, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing memory, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about memory, simply = thought (thinking)

Do I see, smell, feel, taste, hear it really though? I can imagine it all vividly. But is that actual DE. Not quite I suppose. Basically, memory is only thought.

Memory is 'made of' thought. Now is WHEN the memory appears. Gosh, what is the difference between a 'general' and 'memory' thought, well when I look, there is no difference. How is it known that a 'memory' thought refers to something happened that has happened is by the labelling.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

A future thought is 'made of' thoughts of sounds, seeing, hearing, emotion, sensations possibly, tastes, smells. The future thought appears now. There is no difference between a 'general' and 'future' thought. It is absolutely not known that a 'future' thought refers to something that will happen! What I think will happen not always happens! Hmm, the EXACT difference is the labels?? But, no, I don't think there is a difference! Perhaps it's the emotions that are different? How is the difference known exactly is by labels and thought. But I am not really seeing a difference. They both exist in an imagination.

Ok I will experience sleep tonight. It's starting to come up that sleep us just another moment? In this moments of now! Haha.

what experiences "sleep"? Is there a sleeper?

Perhaps nothing experiences sleep because it is a thought. There is no sleeper just like there is no thinker or hearer. But let me take time to look at this more tonight too.

Thank you Rali!

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat :)

Memory:
Seeing memory, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling memory, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling memory, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting memory, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing memory, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about memory, simply = thought (thinking)

Do I see, smell, feel, taste, hear it really though? I can imagine it all vividly. But is that actual DE. Not quite I suppose. Basically, memory is only thought.

A future thought is 'made of' thoughts of sounds, seeing, hearing, emotion, sensations possibly, tastes, smells.

Can a thought be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt? Or they are just known?
Remember the chocolate exercise …
I can tell you that I’ve tried a new fruit, sour soup – it is sour and flavourful, chewy and fibrous. You can imagine the taste but can you really experience it? Can you add more details to that description? Can you get wet by thinking of a waterfall? Can you record the “memories” or “future thoughts” and play them back later to hear how they sound like? Can you hear my memory thoughts?

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.
Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while. Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?
Notice that there was no bells and no fireworks when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. The shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life? What is here?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity? Can it be really heard, smelled, felt, smelled or seen?
The spoon questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

what experiences "sleep"? Is there a sleeper?

This was quite strange to try to figure out. Although, I know there is figuring out here. So nothing experiences sleep, it is just happening. There is not a sleeper. Again, it is just all a soup happening!!

Can a thought be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt? Or they are just known?

Right, no a thought can not be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt? They are just known!

can you really experience it? Can you add more details to that description? Can you get wet by thinking of a waterfall? Can you record the “memories” or “future thoughts” and play them back later to hear how they sound like? Can you hear my memory thoughts?

No, I cannot really experience it. Nope, I can't add more details to that description. No, I cannot get wet by thinking of a waterfall. No, I cannot record "memories" or "future thoughts". I definitely can't hear your memory thoughts.

is there a spoon here, in real life?

It isn't here, in real life.

So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

I looked directly at seeing, and there is no spoon. The spoon was never there in the first place, just thoughts of it. It never existed.

Thank you for giving me this exercise. Ok I see that seeing through the illusion is not any more than this. I have actually been thinking seeing through the illusion is a mind altering blow my mind type of experience. It's actually simple.

is there a spoon here, in real life? What is here?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Yes, there is a spoon in real life. There is a spoon in my hand which I can see, feel, hear and have thoughts about. The image and the experience is not the same. It differs as one is directly experienced through seeing, feeling, hearing and the other is only found in thought.

Is it an image or is it an actual entity? Can it be really heard, smelled, felt, smelled or seen?

It is an image only not an entity. It cannot be really heard, smelled, felt or seen.

Wow, thank you for this. Therefore, in real life all there is, is this stuff that is directly experienced and nothing else. I know we have been exploring this a lot already but this I see again now. Everything is all one entity and I am not a separate entity from it!

Thank you Rali!

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Great stuff!

Yes, there is a spoon in real life. There is a spoon in my hand which I can see, feel, hear and have thoughts about. The image and the experience is not the same. It differs as one is directly experienced through seeing, feeling, hearing and the other is only found in thought.

Yes, but is there really a spoon to be held… directly experienced through the senses, OR there are just the senses? A spoon as an “object” is just a stepping stone in seeing the difference between imagination (mental seeing, smelling, tasting,…) vs DE (“real” seeing, smelling, tasting, …)
Here is another exercise to play with that distinction
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the
label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a
label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in
any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on
‘reality’?

Everything is all one entity and I am not a separate entity from it!

When you say “entity”, what do you mean by that? Does THIS have any limits, characteristics, or qualities?
The definition of entity according to Google
1.a thing with distinct and independent existence.
2.existence; being.
So what do you have in mind when you say “entity”? So let me ask you again…

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?
Can “being” have parts? How is “being” experienced in DE? Is there anything here that is not the senses? It's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought.
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

[quote]but is there really a spoon to be held… directly experienced through the senses, OR there are just the senses?[/quote]

Right, there is no spoon to be held. There's no borders between one object and another. The spoon is just seeing, hearing, sensation, thought.


When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the
label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a
label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in
any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on
‘reality’?

When I look at the word label '[color=#FF0000]GREEN[/color]', the actual experience in DE is, seeing red, thought about red and green. Therefore, the colour 'red' is experienced in "real" seeing, the colour 'green' is only imagined. The label '[color=#FF0000]GREEN[/color]' does not have a one to one correspondence with 'reality'. Yes, the label suggests colour red, according to the above.

'Green' is not associated in any way to the colour red, it is just a label that overlays the actual experience of red. The redness is not affected in any way if there are other labels such as 'GREEN' 'BAD' or 'GOOD'. Redness does not become 'good' or 'bad', the labels have no effect at all on "reality"!! Thank you for this! I can let go of many labels I have placed on myself now.

[quote]When you say “entity”, what do you mean by that? Does THIS have any limits, characteristics, or qualities?[/quote]

When I say entity, I meant a stream of processes. I suppose I am still seeing this stream of processes or this soup as being inside of a pot. However, that is not accurate if I recall from all of the enquiries we have done. There is absolutely no border, no pot, it all just is as a borderless ongoing piece of paper.

The entity doesn't have any limits. As to characteristics or qualities. Well, it's all empty.

[quote]So what do you have in mind when you say “entity”?[/quote]

As above, I had still been thinking the soup is in a pot. So thank you for pointing this out. I get there is no entity. Everything just is.

[quote]Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?
Can “being” have parts? How is “being” experienced in DE? Is there anything here that is not the senses?[/quote]

There is just being. Life is happening as being. That "aliveness" is not an object or subject. No, it's not human. It's not what I've taken as "me". I don't see a "me" anymore. "Being" cannot have parts.

[b]"Being":[/b]
Thought about "being", simply = thought (thinking)

So "being" is only experienced as thought and not the other senses. Which means it is imagined?!

All I have is senses, I couldn't say if there is anything else here that is not the senses. It would only be imagined, story, thought if I were to come up with something!

This is incredible.

Thank you Rali!

Love

Cat

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Sorry, my while message was not formatted correctly!

Hope you can still understand my message.

May I ask a question?

What is the origin of the piece of paper, the soup, the stream of processes?

Thank you!

Love

Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat

Redness does not become 'good' or 'bad', the labels have no effect at all on "reality"!! Thank you for this! I can let go of many labels I have placed on myself now.

Great stuff! Yes, description and reality are just not comparable. Thoughts are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Too simple! Once you can see this, you will stop endlessly frustrating yourself by trying to figure out how things are. Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are? Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality and let go of labels?
So what is it? What is it that is currently identified with thoughts?
What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them?
What do thoughts happen to?
Is there someone outside of thoughts, being identified with them?
Where is the mysterious, unknown, outside entity?
Just notice what is ‘underneath’ all thoughts.
Thoughts add an overlaying narrative of names, labels, interpretations, explanations over the simplicity of what is.
Instead of endlessly reaching for ideas, concepts and explanations, just let it all go, and see.
Just see what is here now silently, without words.
Just notice what is left when there is no thinking about it.

So "being" is only experienced as thought and not the other senses. Which means it is imagined?!

Well, “being”/”existing” is just a label for “experiencing”/”lifing” which are still more labels for whatever IS at the moment, for just THIS (another label :)))). Even when supposedly nothing is happening (according to thought) there are subtle sensations – heartbeat, breathing, “body stuff”, maybe subtle seeing (e.g. blackness) but is there anything else besides the senses (THIS)? “Experience” is still a loaded word as it presupposes an experiencer. In Buddhism the term “suchness” or “thusness” (whatever is happening) is used, referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction. I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced – rather than labelling the experience.

I cannot choose the next emotion that will arise. I really, really wish I could because the emotion jealousy is one that I really hate. When it arises I wish to push it away, ignore it, bury it, I am so embarrassed about that emotion. I have no control over when it arises though. I am looking at what is happening when I am jealous. I can't choose the emotion, it just arises in response to a stimulus. I did not choose to get angry, anxious or jealous.

Let’s explore emotions…
So emotion = thought + sensation
Let’s try jealousy
Each emotion consists of body sensations and a label attached to it. That is to say, see that certain sensations tend to be labelled in certain ways, e.g. the thought label “fear” may be habitually applied to a knot-like sensation in the stomach area. “Anxiety” may be the thought label for trembling hands and nausea, etc. They may vary for different people, so it helps to be aware of what it is for you.
So when jealousy appears explore the sensations. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘jealousy”.

Where exactly are the sensations in the body that are called “jealousy”?
What kind of sensations are present? Describe the quality of the sensations, for example, tingling, pressure, warmth, constriction.
How far do they extend? Let yourself sink into the sensations as you would into a warm bath. Being immersed in them, are they pleasant? Unpleasant? Neither?
Do the sensations know anything about “jealousy”?
What happens when you finish the experiment and the labels are added again?
Does the label ’jealousy’ know anything about jealousy, or is the word just a bunch of letters?

With eyes closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation.
If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. Once again…you are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.
Who owns the sensations and emotions, to whom do they belong? Where is the ‘me’ that is jealous and knows about it? Really look.
When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘jealousy’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

You can also do this when you experience physical pain. Of course you can use this exercise with any other emotion. Please let me know how it goes

Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your message.

what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are? Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality and let go of labels?
So what is it? What is it that is currently identified with thoughts?
What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them?
What do thoughts happen to?
Is there someone outside of thoughts, being identified with them?
Where is the mysterious, unknown, outside entity?

Good question, what is it that thinks it is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are? Based on previous enquiries, it's just uncontrollable thoughts arising. Nothing is having the thoughts. There is not a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is. What is currently identified with thoughts? I can't see it. All THIS IS, is a space. What is it that stands apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them? Does it really have the ability to disregard them? Or is this all just happening? Thoughts do not happen to anything or anyone. They are just floating out constantly. There is not someone outside of thoughts, being identified with them. I can't find the mysterious, unknown, outside entity.

is there anything else besides the senses (THIS)?

No, there is nothing else besides THIS.

Where exactly are the sensations in the body that are called “jealousy”?
What kind of sensations are present?

Hot, tightened, stiff face. Very stormy, turbulent feeling chest area.

How far do they extend?

Mostly just to the face area, throat, chest

Being immersed in them, are they pleasant? Unpleasant? Neither?
Do the sensations know anything about “jealousy”?
What happens when you finish the experiment and the labels are added again?
Does the label ’jealousy’ know anything about jealousy, or is the word just a bunch of letters?

At the moment, the sensations feel unpleasant. But the more I think about it, the more neutral the feelings feel. No, the sensations don't know anything about "jealousy". When the experiment is finished and the labels are added again I feel the unpleasantness of it, all over again and the intensity of the emotion again. No, the label 'jealousy, does not know anything about jealousy, the word is just a bunch of letters.

Who owns the sensations and emotions, to whom do they belong? Where is the ‘me’ that is jealous and knows about it?

Noone owns the sensations and emotions. They don't belong to anyone. They are just floating in the IS. There is not a 'me' that is jealous. It doesn't know about it. Those sensations are just there in the IS of everything.

Thank you for this.

I am going to try it further. The emotion and sensation "failure" is coming up and I will try this with that sensation too. It's really interesting just looking at the sensation and seeing that it's just there and arising and it's noone's sensation. I will keep LOOKING at it!

Thanks again.

Love Cat

[poppyseed]

Hi Cat
Lovely looking!

Based on previous enquiries, it's just uncontrollable thoughts arising.

Always have a fresh look, right now. Previous enquiry is just conclusions/thoughts. All the answers are in looking, there is nothing to learn, nothing to remember. So have a look right now! What is it that thinks, it is separate from what is, and is trying to figure out how things are?

All THIS IS, is a space.

Space? What is the difference between space and “the seen”? Is space like a container for experience? Do thoughts appear in space? Are they floating around in space/in the IS, or they are just known/thought? Describe this space, please, no imagination.
Are thoughts happening in a different space than seeing? Do they have their own "lanes"/"channels" in that space? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound or colour? Or is the line a mental construct? Are there distinct thoughts, colours, sounds… without the labels? Or there is just inseparable seen_heard_tasted_smelled_felt_thought (THIS)? Are there a space and thoughts – two? Do you see borders between thoughts and space?
THIS is like looking at a lava lamp. The wax may seem to change shape, and the shapes it seems to take may seem to be present one moment, and absent the next. But all that is known is the wax (experience). Nothing actually changed and nothing was ever born or lost, although it may have seemed to. All that is known is the experienced - nothing can be added to it, nor taken away. LOOK! Silence is no different to sound. Only thought says some 'thing' isn't there. Darkness is just a colour, like any other, no different from light. Thought labels darkness/ blackness as the absence of some 'thing' but it is not less known than light is.
Empty space is no different to “solid matter” (seeing/colour), it is still a 'thing', not a lack of some 'thing' .

Here are excerpts from two sutras for your contemplation:

Heart sutra
Form is no other than emptiness,
Emptiness no other than form,
Form is only emptiness,
Emptiness only form.
Feeling, thought, and choice,
Consciousness itself,
Are the same as this.
All things are by nature void,
They are not born or destroyed;
Nor are they stained or pure,
Nor do they wax or wane.
…
All things are by nature void,
They are not born or destroyed;
Nor are they stained or pure,
Nor do they wax or wane.

Bahiya Sutra
…
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Hot, tightened, stiff face. Very stormy, turbulent feeling chest area

Once you’re down to the bare sensation – having taken the thought label off it, the story can hardly go unnoticed. So pay attention to these thought patterns. Are they true? How are others (that you are jealous of) experienced in DE? Can you really experience what they think, what they do when all you have is seeing hearing, …and thinking (conditioned patterns / your bubble of reality)? Are there others or apples?
A tightened stiff face is just that – a tightened stiff face and nothing more – not jealousy and not a story about something that brings jealousy. Even "stiff face" is a conditioned label. These are like post-it notes sticking on top of each other in layers of story telling - basic concepts, a story about these concepts, a story about the story and so on. Notice that! Is there a "stiff face" in the sensation?
So look carefully! Does the story come first? Does sensation come first? Look into this several times during the day and tell me what you find. Replace the story of "jealousy" with "benevolence". Do the sensations change with the story or they change on their own account? Thought says yes, but look for yourself. Is the story necessary for sensations to appear and dissipate?
Love
Rali

[catwk]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your message.

What is it that thinks, it is separate from what is, and is trying to figure out how things are?

Ok I was actually getting confused by this question, like trying to figure out how to answer it. If I answer from DE though, all it is, is a thought.

Space? What is the difference between space and “the seen”? Is space like a container for experience? Do thoughts appear in space? Are they floating around in space/in the IS, or they are just known/thought?

Right, I meant "the seen", when I uses the word 'space'. But I see how the word space is inaccurate and again, leads me to relate to as if there is a container for experience. I did think thoughts were appearing in space. But I see that, as you have pointed out, the thoughts are just known/thought.

If I were to describe this 'space', it's an imaginary bubble that thought arises in. I see how I just made this up in my mind.

Are thoughts happening in a different space than seeing? Do they have their own "lanes"/"channels" in that space? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound or colour? Or is the line a mental construct? Are there distinct thoughts, colours, sounds… without the labels? Or there is just inseparable seen_heard_tasted_smelled_felt_thought (THIS)? Are there a space and thoughts – two? Do you see borders between thoughts and space?

Funny, I kind of related to that there were different spaces between thoughts and seeing. I did think seeing was a separate thing from thoughts. I cannot find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides sound and colour. Yes, the line is a mental construct. Wow, what else is a mental construct? There are no distinct thoughts, colours, sounds without the labels. Yes, it is inseparable seen_heard_tasted_smelled_felt_thought. Thank you for making this clear for me. No, the space and thoughts aren't two. But I did originally think that the space was a container for the thoughts. Now I see the 'space' is something I fabricated. I had thought there was a border between thoughts and space. THIS has not borders though.

Thank you for the sutras.

Are they true? How are others (that you are jealous of) experienced in DE? Can you really experience what they think, what they do when all you have is seeing hearing, …and thinking (conditioned patterns / your bubble of reality)? Are there others or apples?

Are the thought patterns true? I am starting to see how they are absurd if I am basing them on sensation.

People I am jealous of
Seeing people I am jealous of, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling people I am jealous of, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling people I am jealous of, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing people I am jealous of, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about people I am jealous of, simply = thought (thinking)

[catwk]

I can't experience what they think, what they do. Are there others or apples? Hehe...no, there is just THIS.

Is there a "stiff face" in the sensation?

No, there isn't. This is my label of it. All there is in the sensation is heat.

Does the story come first? Does sensation come first?

Well, I was going to say that story comes first and then the sensation. But in the moment that I get jealous, the sensation comes first. Or does it?

Do the sensations change with the story or they change on their own account?

I'm not seeing it clearly. Yes, thoughts say yes they do change according to the story. Then I also see that my sensations are the way they are regardless of the story.

Is the story necessary for sensations to appear and dissipate?

When I am looking at the sensations, then no, a story is not necessary. The sensations just IS.

Thank you Rali. Incredible once again.

Love

Cat