I'd like to awaken please

[Basil]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your encouragement. There hasn't been space today to reply but I've been coming back to DE here and there throughout the day, I'll write more tomorrow.

Love
Maks

[poppyseed]

Hey Maks
Thank you for letting me know!
Enjoy! :)

Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hey Rali,

Lost my reply mid writing :< well.

I was looking at a couple of points during the day, pausing each time after naming the sense to pay attention to the experience behind the label. Don't feel like describing breakfast from memory but I will post these lists going forward.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It's rich. Wanted to say "neutral" but it's the only place any color or valance actually is. The labels and thought fall flat trying to describe it.

It's like looking at a lava lamp (like in the abstract painting).

Do you mean that literally? No 3d world, no location, no depth, only colour?

Do you see any boundaries between them? Where is the hearing happening? Where is the seeing happening?

I understand this but can't see the continuity clearly. It does appear as if the hearing is broken up into sounds. The "construction" sound and the "kids" sound come from the window but the kids appear "on the ground" and the construction is "somewhere above". The tinnitus sound appears to be located inside the head. The seeing appears like a window into a 3d world where there's this character I'm controlling - upon closer inspection there is no window, no borders of the seeing, nothing beyond. It's actually weird that the seeing neither ends nor wraps around. The seeing itself doesn't have a location, isn't inside or outside of anything, it's just the seeing.

There's nothing in direct experience that could be a barrier between seeing and hearing. They appear simultaneously - in this sense they appear in the same "space".

Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

They appear simultaneously. The feeling is there with or without open eyes and the seeing doesn't change the feeling. Doesn't depend on it.

How is “being alive” actually experienced?

So when I close my eyes and try to stay with the direct experience the thoughts get noticed more clearly. Their content is disregarded but the form recognized. They say stuff like "noticing" or "letting go", try to name every sound, every feeling, instruct what to do with these things, name the verbs. I actually didn't understand previously that you meant that literally but now it's clear - "noticing" is made of thought saying that stuff is being noticed. How "being alive" is experienced is the other thing. The seeing or hearing without the "noticing of it", without labels like "aliveness". I guess you'd say thinking is also it but it feels less alive anyway :d

Thoughts feel violent. Like they grab a hold of... understanding? And they force their view of things on it. When the tendency is allowed it loosens it's grip. "Yes, name the thing. It's important to describe the thing. Form an accurate view. Assign a truth value. Is it true or is it false? It must be put into narrative so that it can be shared, understood, remembered. It's important.". It's as if the mind falls quiet when indulged. In other words resisting fuels it.

What is inquiring? What doesn’t get it? What is frustrated? Is there a frustrated Maks or just frustration (sensation+label)? What is seeing through the thoughts? When you look at nature and how all moves interdependently, is that movement outside of you? Is there a “you”?

The interdependentness doesn't stop where thoughts imagine the self to stop. Clearly the thoughts and emotions respond to the "outside world" and to each other.

What comes up is the seeing of the outline of my nose, remembering that this perspective is associated with the eyes, a tight feeling below the ribcage, thought-images of Maks, inner talk trying to piece together some answer. When a direction of looking seems "promising" the thoughts come in imagining succeeding in "getting it".

So there's just seeing, feeling, thinking. That much shouldn't change. So isn't what can change also only story? If there's noone to believe in thoughts, only thinking, does that mean that only content of thinking changes?

Is there a not succeeding Maks with a differently wired brain, or just unchecked beliefs that need seeing through?

It seems like a good bet that more practice in looking is gonna help but yes, unchecked beliefs are kind of obvious in others. Why wouldn't they be the glue here as well.

How can beliefs be found? I can think a thought on purpose: "Yes there exists a Maks, he's doing all the witnessing, inquiring and containing". Did I think it? If it just appeared then that's a bit frightening. Then the thought comes "I'm trapped in a monkey".

Seems like it would be fruitfull to look at choice, free will and responsibility. It feels like thoughts and actions are controlled somehow. I'll catch up on the unanswered questions first.

Love
Maks

[poppyseed]

Hi Maks

I can further point on your reply but I think it's better if you first catch up and then I will point depending on both replies. Otherwise we'll keep going backwards and forwards.

Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hey,

It makes sense to answer the remaining questions but I've been trying to see the things you suggest are the case the past 2 days and it's not been very successful. Let me try again this evening and I'll post what I got.

Love
Maks

[poppyseed]

Hey Maks

I've been trying to see the things you suggest are the case the past 2 days and it's not been very successful

It doesn't matter -there are no right or wrong answers just what is there at the moment. Post your observations

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Maks
It's been a while!
Are we still doing an inquiry??

Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hey Rali,

I guess I'd like to ask your advice on what to do here.

These last few days life has been hard to deal with and it's mostly self-inflicted. Haven't been sharing these things with you because this investigation probably isn't supposed to be therapy but it's super in the way of what we do so I'll just explain.

There's two things that are most salient. One of them is the recognition of just how much suffering there's been. Reviewing memories and the stories of what's been important in the past and why, seeing that they basically all boil down to "wanting love". More often than not romantically but that's probably just a human-legible handle for a more general thing. Unconditional acceptance. It's about ending the restlessness. I'm noticing there's actually this recurring thought that literally says "I love you" whenever there's strong distress.

The other thing is that the general tendency of aversion is very strong and very much maladaptive. It showed up here in our thread a couple of times and it plagues me in all the other areas of life, most pressingly around work. So here it looks like me not knowing how to see the things you point to, this being slightly uncomfortable and then that uncomfortableness gets generalized and associated with the _idea_ of inquiring. Doing the looking itself is mostly fine but the idea of doing it becomes uncomfortable to a far greater degree so that whenever the thought of it arises quickly distractions follow.

When I said it's maladaptive it's because at it's core this feeling in the stomach is just information like "you should be working right now". Useful. But it's so mixed up with the thoughts that I haven't been working and the shame and guilt make it so hard and heavy and painful that I push these thoughts and feelings away and engage in some distraction. It doesn't make much sense and yet this repeats.

A funny way to put it is that I desire to get rid of the aversion.

Just now tried to invite these feelings in and give them space and it's really similar to enduring physical pain under the solar plexus. Distinguishing the feeling and the thinking and questioning every label helps and eventually it can be just felt as a neutral feeling. Took a long time but felt productive.

So you'll probably say to just do more of that? Well the problem is that it starts out dreadful and there's not much appetite for this pain whenever I'm deep in the emotional narrative and there's distress.

I fear I'm wasting your and my time with these recurring interruptions. I've started replying several times now but either this avoidance showed up or problems born from other types of avoidance got in the way. This little loop is mostly what's wrong with existence and what I hoped to fix with the inquiry btw. Do you have any advice?

Love
Maks

[Basil]

Looking at this feeling of aversion in the stomach. Why the raw feeling feels bad - what the evidence for the badness is. One of ths subtler reasons is an associated image of something black turning red. There's heaviness in the breathing like the breath is being opposed.

I don't understand why it's not directly motivating. It doesn't cause me to go and deal with the source problem like sit down and work. It's just painful. Thinking of the thing that's being avoided just causes stronger sensations. And it's not that it's unclear what the problem is but I'm not getting up to deal with the issue, just doing what I was doing before but with pain. And there's a certainty that moving towards the problem will cause more pain. Why??

[poppyseed]

Hi Maks

I don't understand why it's not directly motivating. It doesn't cause me to go and deal with the source problem like sit down and work. It's just painful. Thinking of the thing that's being avoided just causes stronger sensations. And it's not that it's unclear what the problem is but I'm not getting up to deal with the issue, just doing what I was doing before but with pain. And there's a certainty that moving towards the problem will cause more pain. Why??

Resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. Now you’ve seen there is no self, but resistance is still here. When you have two opposing views (i.e. view of reality) you have to keep checking their validity. What we are used to do is to check if a new idea fits with the rest of our beliefs and disregard it if it doesn’t (confirmation bias). This method saves energy so it was used for a really long time. Now we’ve added a second method for dealing with opposing concepts – to check with our senses which one truly describes what is happening. The “aversion” comes from that confirmation bias – all these old beliefs that are in contradiction with the observations of DE - as you have not just one thought but a system of thoughts forming your view/belief system of reality. So to “reduce the resistance’ you need to painstakingly examine all thoughts one by one as they appear in order for thoughts to self-organise and form a new core of beliefs around DE. And I underlie self-organise as this is not in your control, it just happens. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience :).
Resistance is actually a friend. It shows where exactly attention is needed – which beliefs need to be seen first. So respect it, make friends with it, use it as a radar to find places of old conditioning that still need cleaning up - these are different ways to relate to resistance and aversion. Don’t resist the sensation of resistance. Say yes to it the next time it comes up and see what else you notice about this mechanism, about the nature of sensation and what triggers it. Explore it with curiosity, with surrender
So… what is actually being resisted here? What core belief (the source problem) exactly needs to be checked? Please share so we can look together

Resistance (doubt, procrastination) also comes as a distraction from feeling “unpleasant” sensations:

Looking at this feeling of aversion in the stomach. Why the raw feeling feels bad - what the evidence for the badness is. One of ths subtler reasons is an associated image of something black turning red. There's heaviness in the breathing like the breath is being opposed.

How would you describe this feeling in the stomach – tightness, icky-ness? There is mental imagery of “something black turning red” (still a thought), but besides that how would you describe the feeling? Separated from the label, is there something in the sensation that shows that is an “aversion”? Does the sensation know anything about an “aversion” or is it just unnamed sensation that is appearing right now? Are there any hooks (literal) that connect the label “aversion” with the sensation? Does the “heaviness in the breathing” suggest in any way that it is an “aversion”? What proof do you have besides thought saying it is?
Also… Are you the experiencer/observer of these “unpleasant” sensation, the one that is trying to avoid them? If you are the observer of these thoughts and sensations, where are you observing them from? What gives you the indication that you are there observing/experiencing? With eyes closed, can you look into your stomach and see that is painful? Can your eyes actually see inside your stomach? So isn’t it just a mental image (of stomach, of something black turning red) that is appearing giving the impression that sensations are seen or felt (from above)? Focus on the sensations that are labelled “me”. Can you find an observer in them? Look at the sensations of “eyes” /”behind the eyes”. Is there an observer there or just dull subtle sensations of “pressure” with a mental image of “eyes”? Where could possibly this observer/experiencer be?

Reviewing memories and the stories of what's been important in the past and why, seeing that they basically all boil down to "wanting love". More often than not romantically but that's probably just a human-legible handle for a more general thing. Unconditional acceptance. It's about ending the restlessness. I'm noticing there's actually this recurring thought that literally says "I love you" whenever there's strong distress.

So wanting is the flip side of missing. Here is another angle. Wanting is just that — wanting/thinking. Wanting to be loved, acknowledged, validated, heard, respected, and accepted, are big wants. Wanting to be loved and accepted are also just wanting. You think that love and acceptance have to come from someone else, from outside; only then, you imagine, will you be happy and feel loved. But the love you seek is not “out there”. There is no one person out there who can give it to you. And before you rush into new age ideas of self-love, check: what are “others” , what is “you”. Where is the one that needs love? Does a label need love?
You don’t have to do anything about the want. Just observe it when it appears. Wants are clingy and sticky. They are thoughts of lacking, of seeking something. So check… do you have the control to change anything that is not how “it is supposed to be”? Can you say with a certainty that when you get what you want you will live happily ever after? Consider this: the future never comes— all we have is now. Thinking about problems does not always solve problems, it mostly creates them. This is why I said love is not “out there”. Rejection and insecurity do not come from outside, they are just thought stories (learned patterns of thinking) that cloud the presence of love. The way you see the world is through thinking – your bubble of reality. Love has always been here underneath all the sad stories of unshared love and rejection. It’s just has to be noticed. The “heart” wants to love freely, openly, and limitlessly. It is the recognition that all is interconnected, all is one. Love is THIS, surrendering to what IS. It’s only expectations that come in the way of the flow of love, make it conditional and one-sided. Instead of seeing what is lacking, notice what is already here, “allowing” life to be. All that lack is happening in the mind, not in reality. So focus on the sensations that are happening now; let them be seen, and let them pass.
Look!
How do wants appear in the body? Describe the sensations. Are the sensations in any way connected to the want? Is it possible that the want appears as a distraction from experiencing “uncomfortable” sensations (i.e., of not being loved, feeling rejected)? What is the sensation of not being loved? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label? It feels “icky” because it had never been allowed to be felt, but besides that, can you stay with the sensations without the story, allowing them all the space that they need? Are they really that unpleasant? They seem “strong” and “unbearable” but if you give them the space, you will notice that they change, they fluctuate between high’s and low’s. Nothing stays forever the same. Even a headache is never the same moment by moment or compared to last time. Is it possible that these sensations have been wrongly labelled and they have nothing to do with the story (of not being loved)? Look!
Also look again for that experiencer of sensations (ie not being loved), the one that would feel happy otherwise. Are these your sensations? Do you have to improve them? Who would benefit of that improvement? Can you find him/ Maks the experiencer?
I hope that helps with your investigation. It will make things easier if you share honestly whatever comes up – there are no right or wrong answers , only what rings true at the moment. It will help me tremendously with the pointing, if answers is what you are looking for

Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hey,

what is actually being resisted here? What core belief (the source problem) exactly needs to be checked?

That's not clear. The feeling is much lighter than yesterday when it was overpowering. It mostly released when I mentioned struggling with emotion to a colleague at work and she took it well and was supportive. I guess the fear or resistance around work is protecting me from the shame of not taking work seriously enough and being (correctly) judged for it poorly. I notice that this resistance often arises around shame - so when other people are involved. The consciousness/idea of being judged by another person is there even in archetypically transactional interactions like when hiring a contractor or interacting with some beurocratic system made of people. This isn't ideal because it results in being taken advantage of by contractors or avoiding tax stuff. It's kind of random what grows in the mind to become a problem vs what doesn't. I'm reasonably assertive in most contexts but some of them feel paralyzing.

How would you describe this feeling in the stomach – tightness, icky-ness?

Definitely tightness to the point where it's similar to a sensation that a solid piece of wood would produce if it were lodged in the stomach. There's also associated tingling in the hands and feet which isn't being interpreted as anything in particular, may be another thing.

but besides that how would you describe the feeling? Separated from the label, is there something in the sensation that shows that is an “aversion”? Does the sensation know anything about an “aversion” or is it just unnamed sensation that is appearing right now? Are there any hooks (literal) that connect the label “aversion” with the sensation? Does the “heaviness in the breathing” suggest in any way that it is an “aversion”? What proof do you have besides thought saying it is?

It's restrictive - on the in-breath it feels like the rising of the chest and stomach is being opposed. On the out-breath there is a tightening at the base of the ribs. There is a tingling in the larynx and lungs if the out-breath is too fast. It feels like it's setting limits for the breath which should not be crossed. That's the connection with "aversion", the association with "don't". If a thought of the avoided activity comes there is a stab-like sensation originating at the solar plexus and traveling both up to the center of the chest and down into the base of the stomach.

There isn't much talking/naming thoughts. It's more meaning/image-thoughts and these sensations which arrise in association.

Are you the experiencer/observer of these “unpleasant” sensation, the one that is trying to avoid them? If you are the observer of these thoughts and sensations, where are you observing them from? What gives you the indication that you are there observing/experiencing? With eyes closed, can you look into your stomach and see that is painful? Can your eyes actually see inside your stomach? So isn’t it just a mental image (of stomach, of something black turning red) that is appearing giving the impression that sensations are seen or felt (from above)?

The most accurate thing to say is that these sensations arise but it does feel like I'm experiencing them. It feels like I can control whether the breathing is shallow or deep and it feels like I avoid the more unpleasant sensations by breathing shallowly. A general observation is that this precise looking seems harder than it was two weeks ago - feels murkier to disentangle thought content from DE. Trying to see inside the stomach with eyes closed now. It's clearer that images must be thoughts.

When I stay close to the sensation itself for a longer time it gets a bit sad. The face makes a grimace, eyes start watering and coldness is felt more vividly. Noticed this sadness earlier today as well - it was unexpected. It feels like the thing being hidden/protected. When stepping closer to it or allowing it in more fully it gets surprisingly violent and tears start flowing but it got shut down fast. Not clear at all what it's about, what the cause of it is. It doesn't want to come forward and be made into a story, doesn't want to be patronized. There's anger at any thought trying to describe it or talk to it.

Well there was a brief bit of very strong sadness and release but it's gone for now.

Aaand the tears are back and there's strong feeling centered in the solar plexus and in the hands. Thoughts are noticed prominently and distinctly from the feeling, heart's pounding. This wanting to form a view is here all the time and it's in the way of the feeling. There's anger directly at the view forming, at these words I'm typing right now. "This isn't a fucking story".

Chilled out again. The thoughts insisted on describing so the feeling faded like "fine, do whatever you want" - thoughts are safe, they can't touch it anyway. Feeling sorry and confused and it's not clear if this description is accurate anyway.

I've a meeting coming up so I'll answer the rest in the evening. I just want to say that I don't think the stories are about rejection and unshared love. It didn't feel accurate. It's more about a deep longing for peace.

[Basil]

Focus on the sensations that are labelled “me”. Can you find an observer in them? Look at the sensations of “eyes” /”behind the eyes”. Is there an observer there or just dull subtle sensations of “pressure” with a mental image of “eyes”? Where could possibly this observer/experiencer be?

Tried to constrain the observer. The sensations at the top of the head felt "above" it, at the back of the head "behind" it etc. It seems to be like an inch or two deep into the face. When I close the left eye is seems to be directly behind the right eye and the nose is to the left of it. When the right eye is closed it seems behind the left eye and the nose is to the right of it. But nothing jumps when the eyes switch. This isn't consistent and doesn't make any sense. Don't know what to do with this. The sensation of pressure that is associated with "behind the eyes" feels exactly "behind" the center of seeing and yet that place is felt "below the feeler" somehow. This isn't consistent. There are no two observers one behind each eye and the observer isn't distinct from an experiencer of feeling. None of this can be real.

Seeing is indisputable and it's one thing. Trying to see if anything changes in the seeing when the observer is referenced. It's weird how objects in the seeing kind of come to life when paid attention to and kind of disappear otherwise yet nothing changes. Trying to see if there is a thickness to the seeing or if anything can be in front of it or behind it. It doesn't have any location or borders. There is just the seeing. No possibility of a separate observer.

Yeah the observer is just a thought image plus a sensation.

Where is the one that needs love? Does a label need love?

The one that needs love is in the content of thought. There's sensations in the chest but sensations don't need things or own things. The thought content person similarly can't need love in actuality. There can be thought of a cat in a sombrero but the cat doesn't own the sombrero since they both are only thought stuff. It owns it within the thought.

do you have the control to change anything that is not how “it is supposed to be”? Can you say with a certainty that when you get what you want you will live happily ever after?

Control seems reasonably solid. I'm identified with the choices that are happening, it's believed I'm making them. "How it's supposed to be" is easier to disbelieve - that's thoughts, wants and imagination stuff. And actually the connection between wants and happiness isn't solid at all.

How do wants appear in the body?

There's uncomfortableness. It's "restlessness" which is "uncertainty" in the chest and arms which is a tingling and some heaviness. Sadness comes up.

Are the sensations in any way connected to the want? Is it possible that the want appears as a distraction from experiencing “uncomfortable” sensations (i.e., of not being loved, feeling rejected)?

Ok it seems plausible that the sensation is not a sensation of wanting and that it could be "rejection". This is a bit theoretical. I'm not sure if I agree with the premise that all would be fine if only people loved me.

What is the sensation of not being loved? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?

Idk at the moment it feels like there's sadness behind the corner that's going to burst forward with any kind of looking. My girlfriend got angry at me because of a misunderstanding so I don't know if it's getting conflated. It does resonate with the "not being loved" though. It's a tightness in the solar plexus. Maybe waves of tightness coming down from it into the stomach.

but besides that, can you stay with the sensations without the story, allowing them all the space that they need? Are they really that unpleasant?

Is it possible that these sensations have been wrongly labelled and they have nothing to do with the story (of not being loved)?

I think I'm too agitated at the moment. It's mixed with anger.

Are these your sensations? Do you have to improve them? Who would benefit of that improvement? Can you find him/ Maks the experiencer?

I don't know, sorry, I'll try these ones again later when not so angry. Yeah who's angry where's the person that needs to calm down can you find him. Sorry.

Maks

[poppyseed]

Hi Maks
You are doing great! All of this is completely normal

When I stay close to the sensation itself for a longer time it gets a bit sad. The face makes a grimace, eyes start watering and coldness is felt more vividly. Noticed this sadness earlier today as well - it was unexpected. It feels like the thing being hidden/protected. When stepping closer to it or allowing it in more fully it gets surprisingly violent and tears start flowing but it got shut down fast. Not clear at all what it's about, what the cause of it is. It doesn't want to come forward and be made into a story, doesn't want to be patronized. There's anger at any thought trying to describe it or talk to it.

I don't know, sorry, I'll try these ones again later when not so angry. Yeah who's angry where's the person that needs to calm down can you find him. Sorry.

You can try this with an easier, not so loaded emotion/story. Strong avoidance makes sitting with the actual sensations difficult. Some experiences are strongly felt because of previous “engagement” (positive or negative), and some are just neutral (no engagement, aka no additional stories). There is a desire/thought to see more of the positive and avoid the negative. What is interesting though is why some are considered/labelled “positive” and others ”negative”. Why are some labelled “heavy chest, sad, violent, out of breath, tight ” (negative connotation) and others are not even noticed (neutral) or labelled “bliss, lightness, excitement” (positive). How exactly are these sensations different? Is that classification intrinsic or is it conditioned? The intensity might be different but besides that...? Look! When there is engagement (more stories), pay attention not to the story but to the sensations. That labelling is there either because the sensations are associated with “positive or negative” experience. That association happened at some point (you might remember or not), but is it true? Look, is there anything negative or positive in the sensations? They are just unnamed sensations appearing and then changing/morphing into omething else. The more you stay with actual sensations the more the story is released and its “heaviness” removed. When you stay with the “unpleasant” sensations, do you notice the pull back to the story? The story is a nice diversion to avoid the sensations, just out of habit (they’ve always/for a long time fired together). So try and stay longer with what is really happening/not what the story is claiming to be happening. Can you be in a body where these “unpleasant” sensations are happening? Are they really that unpleasant?

Control seems reasonably solid. I'm identified with the choices that are happening, it's believed I'm making them.

We haven’t looked of the idea of control as you said you’ve seen through self, so let’s have a look at that with the following exercises. Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?
Remember no “feels like” or “seems like” ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’.
Can feeling choose? Can seeing choose?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[Basil]

Hi Rali,

There wasn't a whole lot of space for the inquiry the past couple days. This pervasive sadness that's under the resistance feels like the most important thing to focus on but it kind of doesn't come out. I've had a bit of experience with "purifying" strong emotions and feel like I know what should be done, there's just too little focus/space for it now. I'll get back to the no-self inquiry on friday - that seems like it's orthogonal to the sadness thing. I don't remember what we agreed on - is it ok if I meet with a therapist?

I'm not sure why you write that I've seen through self now... I mean there is the memory of this day a couple weeks back when it was all clear which you described as an altered state. Then the doubt thoughts came back and it was seen that it's only the believing in the thoughts that makes it look like there's a self but by now even that feels like a story I'm telling. Like the thoughts are just too damn sticky and "I" can't bring myself back to what seemed like clear seeing of what's going on. Can't unstick from it on demand.

I'd love your view of what's going on :D jesus it's an addiction.

Thanks for the excercises. So is it ok if I come back to you on friday?

Love and lots of restlessness
Maks

[poppyseed]

Hi Maks

I don't remember what we agreed on - is it ok if I meet with a therapist?

If seeing a therapist is what you need right now, then this is what is happening :). Seeking external support can be beneficial, particularly when dealing with trauma or intense emotional challenges. If you feel that the intensity of your emotions or the challenges of self-inquiry are overwhelming, seeking therapeutic support could be a wise step. If you feel like the inquiry is too much at the moment, we can put it on pause, and come back to it when the trauma has been addressed. If you think that you can do both, please read what follows…

It sounds like you're navigating a complex emotional landscape while simultaneously engaging in self-inquiry. While seeing a therapist is must, we can also try to inquire into this sadness if it is not too much. Let's unpack your concerns and explore potential paths forward
You mentioned feeling a pervasive sadness that feels important to address but hasn't fully surfaced. It is important to acknowledge and create space for difficult emotions. Instead of resisting or suppressing this sadness, try to create space for it. This can involve simply acknowledging its presence without judgment or trying to change it. Pay attention to any bodily sensations associated with this sadness. Where do you feel it in your body? What is the quality of the sensation? Explore any thoughts or beliefs that might be contributing to this sadness. What stories are you telling yourself about this feeling?

I'm not sure why you write that I've seen through self now... I mean there is the memory of this day a couple weeks back when it was all clear which you described as an altered state. Then the doubt thoughts came back and it was seen that it's only the believing in the thoughts that makes it look like there's a self but by now even that feels like a story I'm telling. Like the thoughts are just too damn sticky and "I" can't bring myself back to what seemed like clear seeing of what's going on. Can't unstick from it on demand.

In you post on the 31st of August you wrote:

Today "I"'ve seen through self. Everything is hapenning on it's own. Including thoughts which can be "paid attention" to or not. No real difference. I'ts more correct to say they've been believed and fed with wnergy. Now evwrything is happening all at once without a center. There is doubt that comes in that says that maybe "I"'ll forget how to see this but it too is kind of seen through. There's thoughts that pray to god that "I" don't loose this and revert to mind-identification lol

You expressed uncertainty about having seen through self, noting the return of doubt thoughts. This is a common experience in the process of self-inquiry. It's important to remember that seeing through self isn't about achieving a permanent altered state. It's more about a shift in perception that reveals the illusory nature of the separate self.
Doubt can be a valuable tool for deepening looking. Instead of seeing doubt as a setback, view it as an opportunity to inquire further. The stickiness of thoughts is the tendency to become entangled in mental narratives. The key is to recognise thoughts as just thoughts, without granting them ultimate truth or authority.

You perceive the sadness and the inquiry as separate or "orthogonal". While they might seem distinct, addressing emotional blockages can facilitate deeper self-understanding. Working through emotional challenges can clear the path for a clearer perception of the nature of self.

You described your current state as an "addiction." Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? Understanding your perspective will help in providing a more insightful response.
It's perfectly fine to resume our conversation on Friday. Feel free to share any insights or challenges you've encountered during this time.
Love
Rali