fetter 1

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,

Today has been spent with my 16 old dog---sweet old girl who is in her final days.
And, yes sadness comes and goes and a heaviness in the heart comes and goes.

Even in the midst of sadness it has been nice to have no 'extra' thoughts... my mind is pretty quiet after our last few emails.

I haven't been drawn to read or listen to 'spiritual stuff' the past few days. Life seems to just be/'Lifing' seems to be enough.

There is a simple sweetness here now.
More later,
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

Sorry to hear about your dog, It is hard to let go of someone you love.

Is there an "I" who is grieving and sad or do feelings just arise and leave?

What remains between the coming and going?



J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,

It seems like waves of sadness that come and go... and a tightness in the chest.

Is there an "I" who is grieving and sad or do feelings just arise and leave?

I have always associated the tight sensation with a 'me'. (my chest, my tightness)

But this doesn't seem to be the case; rather it's just tightness. I am not sure how I could say it belongs to me or how it could belong to anyone/thing; but that has been a past habit.

Maybe because the sensation (the coming and going) seems to be in a location. This is where I am 'stuck', a little hung up here because sensations feel localized in a place?

What remains between the coming and going?

This seems very interesting to explore what remains before and after the tightness/sensation. What remains seems open, spacious with no words to describe it. It would be like trying to describe air or space. Maybe the word peaceful would be close.
This flow of sensations seems to alternate between peace then sadness, then peace, then sadness... but those are labels that the mind uses with a story attached.

If I just look---then there is spaciousness around a sensation, and through it. More like the spaciousness forms into a sensation and then loses shape and goes back into nothingness.

I am probably going on a complete tangent here. So keep me on track.
Thank you for being so patient with your guiding.
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

More like the spaciousness forms into a sensation and then loses shape and goes back into nothingness.

Yes, that's right


What about spaciousness and thought?



What about spaciousness and emotion?

J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P.

Happy weekend.

I have been exploring these questions for months (way before I knew about this website and guides).

What about spaciousness and thought?

Exploring again with 'fresh' eyes today...

Closing my eyes and 'finding' the spaciousness first is easy. When a thought floats in it comes from nowhere; and without any control or effort, it appears to form and then in 5 seconds it unforms.

Thoughts are a bit mysterious; it seems like it's a similar experience to the sensations.... they appear and then disappear into spaciousness and with my eyes closed it is 'dark' spaciousness.

With my eyes open the thoughts still disappear but I am seeing colors and shapes.

Exploring with curiousity and there doesn't really need to be an explanation... it seems like just investigating is enough for now.

Just looking.

What about spaciousness and emotion?

Emotions are sensations and stories/thoughts combined--it that right? Please explain more if that isn't what you are refering to.

So investigating a direct experience of an emotions would be 2 parts.... the thoughts/stories and the sensations. Separating the 2 seems helpful for investigation... the thoughts and stories float away into the emptiness of space/spaciousness and then the body sensations do the same.

It could be happening at the same time but it feels sequencial.. but that is most likely an overlay with a mind explanation. First the thoughts go, and then the sensations go (release and disappear)

I am practicing this right now with thoughts/stories about the loss of my dog and the emotion of sadness (which is a tight chest feeling with a story about a dog attached to it)

Although this is happening in real time (as I write this); it seems to just happen without someone 'doing it'. There isn't a decider or doer who lives inside this experience.

Writing this down is very helpful but feels a bit 'mental'. Maybe it's because the words are so limiting.

Please keep me on track--I don't want to become a philosopher about this--I am attemting to write about the experience without too much interpretation.

Warmly,
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

Although this is happening in real time (as I write this); it seems to just happen without someone 'doing it'. There isn't a decider or doer who lives inside this experience.

This is all you need to know. If this is fully accepted it will stop your search right now.


Is there something else in the way?


Maybe you are satisfied with your life as it is?


J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P.

This is all you need to know. If this is fully accepted it will stop your search right now.

Reflecting here; in one of Vince's groups he mentioned that at some point looking for a separate self is like searching for a pink unicorn. This seems to be what is happening! LOL! If you open your closet and look for the pink unicorn and don't find it... do you keep opening your closet and searching, again and again, just to prove it over and over!

Having searched and searched and only finding thoughts and sensations with no manager....it seems clear. No bells and whistles, and yes, that was an expectation; but you have helped to clear that away.

Am I through the gate--- or am I clear that there is no gate?
Where would a gate live? haha
That brings a smile and satisfaction.

This is interesting; finding no evidence of a separate self when looking openly, curiously and honestly is not an 'Ending'--I am awake I am finished! NOT!
It's more like a beginning of discovering what really is here. If there is no separate self then what is here now?

Does this seem correct or have I gotten off course here?

Is there something else in the way?

With complete honestly...there is a little tiny bit of doubt that sneaks in... a doubt thought... that doesn't connect to anyone.
Does that mean I need to start over? If so, I will continue investigation.

Maybe you are satisfied with your life as it is?

I am not completely sure what this refers to; but I will comment and you can correct me if I misunderstood.

This life is very satisfactory with love, money, career, friends, yoga, fun, and retirement... all the 'stuff'.

But, the longing to 'be free/liberated has been around for decades in this body/mind.
Can it be this simple; the discovery that no separate self is running the show--and that all 'this' just unfolds?

Ok, I will stop now and await your guidance.
Namaste,
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

I just would like to get an idea of where you stand right now.

Answer from your current experience.



Is there a separate self called Linda ?


Is there a past or future?


How do you relate to your thoughts?


How do you relate to your emotions?



Has your relationship to other people changed?


what happens when conflict/ problems arise?


what is your relationship to life?


Are there doubts? if so please describe them.


If you are not the separate self who are you?



Try to be concise, It should not take a book to answer these questions!

J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P,

Sorry for the slow response... lots of questions to look at!

Is there a separate self called Linda ?

No, there is no separate self or a separate entity called Linda. Linda seems to be the name given to the body! This body looks like LInda, talks like Linda, but LInda seems to be a label.

Is there a past or future?

It seems like the past and the future are the same; images in the mind. They come and go without sustainability. Our culture supports linking it all together in an imaginary timeline that we call past, present, future. There is no direct experience of past or future. Any memory of a past or a future would be 'now'.

How do you relate to your thoughts?

Thoughts come and go like images or words (sounds) but they seem to narrate events. Like a mental overlay on top of the direct experience of seeing, hearing, sensing.

I am not sure what to say about thoughts but they seem to be like a fantasy world that distracts from the experience itself.
But, keeping it very simple; I can hear a thought but not attach to it and become the owner of it. There is no owner of thoughts.

How do you relate to your emotions?

It is the same with emotions;they don't have a manager, they aren'ts selected or chosen.
They are thoughts/stories with a sensation. They show up, they disappear. But, I must be honest that with the loss of my beloved dog... those body sensations were showing up ALOT.
Emotions are still a bit of a mystery but I can't find an owner of them.

I might need to investigate that a bit more.

Has your relationship to other people changed?

During the last year there has been more of an ease with relationships, less triggers. It seems as if the fewer 'beliefs' that are actually 'believed' the less I need to 'prove my point'.

If there is a small confrontation it is felt in the body without clinging to anything.

what happens when conflict/ problems arise?

This may have been answered in the above questions... but issues are dealt with quicker. There is not much analyzing; sometimes a body 'yes' moves me in a certain direction.

Sensations arise , tears can come, but it feels ok.
There are still arguments with my husband or minor confrontations---I am not completely without reaction.
Reactions are noticed and not judged or pushed.
Sometimes it feels like 'my reaction in my body' (it's not another body feeling the grip), so there is still some identification there. If I pause to investigate there is still not an 'I" that could claim it but the habit of claiming something seems a little sticky.

(practice? notice when it happens?)

what is your relationship to life?

This may have been answered a bit in the above questions too! Life is a mystery for sure! Movement, changes of locations with the body; maybe more like a movie .
I am not so sure what to say about this one.

Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

Yes, the doubts are quiet thoughts. A thought might come up like--You aren't really getting this.

But, it seems like the mind isn't getting it because the mind can't ever get it. Thoughts can't understand emptiness.

Another doubt thought is 'you are just being a philosopher now'.

If you are not the separate self who are you?

Oh my, this is the biggest mystery. I have no idea really. Maybe life just showing up in shapes and colors and movement?

-------
Sending this now without going back and editing... interruptions kept coming all day!
Namaste,
Linda

[indranet]

linda,

That was a very nice reply to my questions.

My only questions are around expectations


Do you still feel some event or shift needs to happen to confirm that you are awake?


Do you think that the thoughts we label as doubts need to disappear for you to be awake?



J.P

[Linda61]

Hi J.P.

Thank you for these questions.

Do you still feel some event or shift needs to happen to confirm that you are awake?

No, not after your quiding and listening to Vince's group. It seems like the shift can be slow and steady. So, my expectations changed; and there if a bit a relief that the big experience doesn't need to happen!

There have been so many tiny shifts for the past several years. Several incredible teachers and guides showed up spontaneously.

Do you think that the thoughts we label as doubts need to disappear for you to be awake?

No.

This shift is nice and thank you for this. The doubt thoughts can be there! They don't need to disappear. Sometimes I imagine the doubt thoughts are in a different language. How would I know there were doubts if they were in Japanese!

LOL! IT would just sounds like nonsense.

Still laughing about this!

Warm regards,
Linda

[indranet]

Hi linda,

Unless there is something you would like to look into further, I think you are ready for the final questions.

This is not compulsory, but it will give you access to some resources beyond the gate.



J.P

[Linda61]

HI J.P,

Yes! The final questions will be fun! Please proceed!

Your help is most appreciated.

Namaste,
Linda

[indranet]

Dear Linda,

Great! Here are the questions, take your time and answer them all in one reply.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

6) Anything to add?

ANSWER

[Linda61]

Hello J.P.

I spent the weekend away---and had no computer time! Here I go now! I love these questions so much.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No! Not at all; what seemed to be a separate me all along was a thought, an idea and just a habit and a way of thinking all these years. The body has a shape, but a separate something has no size or shape and just can't be found. It would be like trying to measure emptiness I guess!

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The answer might be in the above question... but I will continue. The illusion must begin very early; when your parents begin to label things (as they should!) and you begin to grab things and call them 'mine'. This gets reinforced for so many years that there doesn't seem to be a need to question anything. It's just the way it is.

This chunk of beliefs, opinions, thoughts and images somehow become MINE as you get older. You don't grab toys anymore; just a bunch of thoughts and intellectual ideas that our society supports.

When this Santa Claus story is seen through you are simply in the world 'but not of it'. I have felt that way for a very long time actually; probably years... but just needed a bit of guidance to figure out what I was discovering. (thank you J.P)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

Seeing this feels fun. There is a light heartedness about life; thoughts are just like fantasies and don't really relate to what is happening.

When traveling this weekend; there was not a sense of time (in the car); just movement and a steering wheel. There will be deepening (I guess) so who knows what is next? Maybe being in the flow of watching events unfold for entertainment is just what unfolds moment by moment. This feels more like an expansion than a 'ticking of the clock'.

There had been so much investigation before I found about LU that I am not sure there was a big shift; but more like a softening into what is here and can be seen (in the looking) and what cannot be found.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It seemed to be your gentle pointing that doubt thoughts are just thoughts... and that expectations are thoughts as well and are even a bit silly that really helped. It was very helpful to hear that not everyone has a 'huge' AHA moment. For some reason that was reassuring! It felt like 'oh, this has been here a while, but I thought I was going to get fireworks'.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Oh, dear, not sure what to say about this one! No personal separate 'me' is making decision or controlling things; just life is just going on. My hand reaches for a book, reading happens; my feet walk to the bathroom and my body does what bodies do without a manager!

It doesn't seems like there is any choice or control even though for decades I thought so! One of my spiritual teachers years ago used to say that things happen and then the clown comes on stage and takes a bow.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I might have answered this above. It is clear there is no manager here... hmmm. It seems like this is a mystery and no answer is coming. There is a possibility that life just happens on it's own.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

These questions are getting harder to answer!
With the discovery that the separate self can't be found and doesn't live inside of you (in a little box) there seems to be freedom from responsibility. I am certainly not responsible for feeling a certain way to please people or acting a certain way.

Thoughts about things would not dictate what happens.

(not really sure this answer was clear!)

6) Anything to add?

There is a deep appreciation for you, J.P. and the team at LU who puts all of this together. Its seems delightful to know that sensations come and go, stories come and go (and don't have meaning) and there isn't a strong attachment to any of it. This is liberation!

I would like to add that I am interested in learning how to guide. Is there a training for this? I would like to explore this; not sure about the time committment, but I would like to see how it works if you think I am ready.
If you feel I need more exploration before helping others that's ok too.

I am part of several groups with fetter work and look forward to notice what happens!

Much love and gratitude,
Linda