Beginner looking for liberation

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:01 pm

I had the chance to spend some time alone in a park. I would describe it as interesting and weird at the same time. I did go through the exercises and
I had different experiences with the visual field, it got fuzzy some time and I had problems to really name what was going on. Some fear was bubbling up, but nothing which stop me to further inquiry.

I saw aliveness and a synchronisity of things, sometimes the noises+ visual field felt like being to much. An interesting investigation was my inabilities to differentiate between outside and inside or seeing, hearing, feeling. It seems that everything was happening in the same realm. I really liked this exercise…

How do I look into the sensation instead of falling into the mind trap?


Great it's full on unfolding. Just let happen. And when it seems like you are working for it, just again see what happens by itself.

Does it need a separate controlling thought self to function?

We don't need to make thoughts go away. It's enough to recognize what is primal and what is habitual stories of control on top. Just recognize again and again one moment at the time.

Does reality need anything to be permanent or is that only in the self-story?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:04 pm

Here is an exercise to deepen more:

Hearing Exercise

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Jay85
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:20 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:59 pm

Today I haven’t had a lot of opportunity to stay by myself. However I tried to do the hearing exercises surrounded by people and other noises. Hopefully tomorrow will be much better.

1) hearing is just happening. No hearer involved
2) No, I can’t find a hearer here or there.
3) Hearing is appearing in this realm, something tries to cling on it. But it seems to be nothing than a thought as it is not permanent.

I also had glimpses that there is no inherents in the conversations that I had with other people. It’s not that I don’t care about it, but it feels kind of empty.

In this moment a coherent story about myself and my problem sounds a bit silly

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:58 am

Today I haven’t had a lot of opportunity to stay by myself. However I tried to do the hearing exercises surrounded by people and other noises. Hopefully tomorrow will be much better.

1) hearing is just happening. No hearer involved
2) No, I can’t find a hearer here or there.
3) Hearing is appearing in this realm, something tries to cling on it. But it seems to be nothing than a thought as it is not permanent.

I also had glimpses that there is no inherents in the conversations that I had with other people. It’s not that I don’t care about it, but it feels kind of empty.

In this moment a coherent story about myself and my problem sounds a bit silly
You are right there. Is there a separate self? Is there a controller?


As for the coming and going of conventional thoughts: Is the truth that there is no self or controlling agent dependent on experiencing "oneness"? Does this truth only exist when so-called conventional thought are not happening (which for most if not all of us they often, probably most often, do)?

Or is no self as true for normal thoughts and actions, when we look at where these come from, we see that there is no separate self controlling or choosing them?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Jay85
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:31 pm

I can’t find a self. So this seems to be the truth. Truth can’t be depending from arising or presents from thought. So even conventional thought or action are part of the truth. Separation and control is a afterthought.

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:42 am

I can’t find a self. So this seems to be the truth. Truth can’t be depending from arising or presents from thought. So even conventional thought or action are part of the truth. Separation and control is a afterthought.
Yes! Is there any confusion? How are you feeling?
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Jay85
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:20 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:34 am

It is a ping pong between, „I get it“ and „I don’t get it“ and physical reactions/sensation (headache, energies in hands and feet, tension in my jaw). Mostly when I’m alone and the seeing is happening.

To be honest I feel a bit stucked. And there are weird thought coming up, that I’m just faking it and there is nothing going on.

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:50 am

It is a ping pong between, „I get it“ and „I don’t get it“ and physical reactions/sensation (headache, energies in hands and feet, tension in my jaw). Mostly when I’m alone and the seeing is happening.

To be honest I feel a bit stucked. And there are weird thought coming up, that I’m just faking it and there is nothing going on.
All this is normal.

Is there a self choosing or creating these shifts and these imposter syndrome thoughts?

What is experiencing all this?

Also can you see that when you use the word "feeling" on "stucked" you are actually reffering to a thought, but reifying it into something more "as if direct experience" by calling it "feeling". Do the sensations that are there NOW or in any moment by themselves say that there is a you and that this you is stuck? This is a very common occurance.

Allow for all feelings and all thoughts. They are all part of the awakening, part of the "lesson to be learned".

Also, listen to this video from one of the founders of LU:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=KY7eGcQBhUUR7I7a
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

User avatar
Jay85
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:20 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:13 pm

Thanks for the video. The analogue of falling does fits pretty well. At the moment it feels like nothing is happening. There is a thought that nothing changed and all is the same than before, but I'm not really buying it. This before an after sounds silly.

Its really funny...Through our conversations, I had an aha moment that I did not differentiate between a feeling and a thought about a feeling. Is there a difference between a sensation and a feeling?

You did point a couple of times to "what is experiencing this". Its quite obvious not me

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Elad
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Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:22 pm

Beautiful! By asking if there is a difference between a sensation and feeling you start venturing into deeper stages of non-duality beyond what LU aims for. I would encourage you to just keep looking at that for yourself and "your" experience more than any words could say will reveal itself to you!

This is all very clear. I think you are ready for final questions. Please answer the following questions in one message. Make sure you answer each one below "ANSWER" so it is easy to track what questions you are answering individually. Make sure to answer all questions. Take all the time you need and enjoy. After receiving your answers maybe you and I will inquire more together and/or maybe 3 other guides will have some things to inquire into with you. After that process you and I will talk about onwards, lovely opportunities to stay in touch, exchange and explore with "like-minded/hearted". Remember, answer only from direct experience, not from conviction or past experience. If something doesn't feel possible to answer, stay honest to that. Keep it simple and real. Enjoy.





1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

8) Anything to add?

ANSWER
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

User avatar
Jay85
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:20 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:14 pm

Beautiful! By asking if there is a difference between a sensation and feeling you start venturing into deeper stages of non-duality beyond what LU aims for. I would encourage you to just keep looking at that for yourself and "your" experience more than any words could say will reveal itself to you!

This is all very clear. I think you are ready for final questions. Please answer the following questions in one message. Make sure you answer each one below "ANSWER" so it is easy to track what questions you are answering individually. Make sure to answer all questions. Take all the time you need and enjoy. After receiving your answers maybe you and I will inquire more together and/or maybe 3 other guides will have some things to inquire into with you. After that process you and I will talk about onwards, lovely opportunities to stay in touch, exchange and explore with "like-minded/hearted". Remember, answer only from direct experience, not from conviction or past experience. If something doesn't feel possible to answer, stay honest to that. Keep it simple and real. Enjoy.





1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:No as I can't find a "self, me and I" in the now, it has never been one. Not in the presents, in the future or in the past.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER: The Me seems to be an afterthought, that arise as thought to judge, evaluate or own a experience. i.e. My hand is typing this, the idea and movements are coming from nowhere. When attention and focus is in please, the I does not exists. An really prominent example for me are body sensations and thought... they seem to trigger this afterthought. "I don't like this", "This is dangerous for me", "This thought is bad, I'm a bad person". Further time seems to play a major role. "When is this going to end", "Nothing is happening, this is a waste of time"

In a closer investigation, this sounds really ridiculous as everything is just happening in the now. Past and future are mind constructs.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:
I have difficulties to remember things. It's all a bit fuzzy and as it doesn't really matter. But I try my best:
I was into this topic for couple of month, so I was totally excited to get this thing started. I felt progress from each posting and responds. After couple of days, the thoughts of "I'm not getting it", "I'm losing it" and "I'm faking it and do only rephrase videos" come up. These are coming and going.
There were/are periods which feel pretty "charged", to be honest I can't describe it. In the past I would call them fear, but that's not true anymore.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:
I can't tell.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:
The question of "decision, intention, free will" seems to appear afterwards to explain, judge or discuss in the mind. In the present moment these questions doesn't play any role. This text is coming from nowhere and does need someone to willingly texting this.
Choices are done before the ME thought. Also control seems to be a mind construct as the decision, choice is always coming from nowhere

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:
I really have no clue!

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:
Good question, it seems that the only responsibility that I have is to look. And even that is quite hard as avoidance and other funny tricks show up (bordem, body sensation, visual experiences, thought)

8) Anything to add?

From the deepest of my heart. Thank you for this! Really appreciated.

ANSWER

User avatar
Elad
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:23 pm

Beautiful! By asking if there is a difference between a sensation and feeling you start venturing into deeper stages of non-duality beyond what LU aims for. I would encourage you to just keep looking at that for yourself and "your" experience more than any words could say will reveal itself to you!

This is all very clear. I think you are ready for final questions. Please answer the following questions in one message. Make sure you answer each one below "ANSWER" so it is easy to track what questions you are answering individually. Make sure to answer all questions. Take all the time you need and enjoy. After receiving your answers maybe you and I will inquire more together and/or maybe 3 other guides will have some things to inquire into with you. After that process you and I will talk about onwards, lovely opportunities to stay in touch, exchange and explore with "like-minded/hearted". Remember, answer only from direct experience, not from conviction or past experience. If something doesn't feel possible to answer, stay honest to that. Keep it simple and real. Enjoy.





1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:No as I can't find a "self, me and I" in the now, it has never been one. Not in the presents, in the future or in the past.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER: The Me seems to be an afterthought, that arise as thought to judge, evaluate or own a experience. i.e. My hand is typing this, the idea and movements are coming from nowhere. When attention and focus is in please, the I does not exists. An really prominent example for me are body sensations and thought... they seem to trigger this afterthought. "I don't like this", "This is dangerous for me", "This thought is bad, I'm a bad person". Further time seems to play a major role. "When is this going to end", "Nothing is happening, this is a waste of time"

In a closer investigation, this sounds really ridiculous as everything is just happening in the now. Past and future are mind constructs.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:
I have difficulties to remember things. It's all a bit fuzzy and as it doesn't really matter. But I try my best:
I was into this topic for couple of month, so I was totally excited to get this thing started. I felt progress from each posting and responds. After couple of days, the thoughts of "I'm not getting it", "I'm losing it" and "I'm faking it and do only rephrase videos" come up. These are coming and going.
There were/are periods which feel pretty "charged", to be honest I can't describe it. In the past I would call them fear, but that's not true anymore.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:
I can't tell.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:
The question of "decision, intention, free will" seems to appear afterwards to explain, judge or discuss in the mind. In the present moment these questions doesn't play any role. This text is coming from nowhere and does need someone to willingly texting this.
Choices are done before the ME thought. Also control seems to be a mind construct as the decision, choice is always coming from nowhere

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:
I really have no clue!

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:
Good question, it seems that the only responsibility that I have is to look. And even that is quite hard as avoidance and other funny tricks show up (bordem, body sensation, visual experiences, thought)

8) Anything to add?

From the deepest of my heart. Thank you for this! Really appreciated.

ANSWER
Thank you! Can you please repost and not inside a quote function... (So it will be white, easier to read).


Also, please say more about this experience losing it or being fake (question four). What does that consist of? Is it happening to anyone?

And say more about how it feels to be with the change?

And can an I that does not exist be responsible for looking/seeing?

Lets work a little more before we bring in other guides.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

User avatar
Elad
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:24 pm

Sorry I meant question 3 where I wrote 4.

I think you are in the middle of a shift. We will work a little more.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

User avatar
Elad
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:25 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Elad » Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:26 pm

Also say more about whatever fear, resistence, confusion might be there.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

User avatar
Jay85
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:20 am

Re: Beginner looking for liberation

Postby Jay85 » Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:20 am

Sorry for that, I'm not the most advance forum person.
I reposted the post in the end of the text.

I also answered already yesterday, but lost the text because I was logged out during the writing. But I will get better ;)


1. Also, please say more about this experience losing it or being fake (question four). What does that consist of? Is it happening to anyone?

Answer: Especially in the morning, before waking up completely the seeking mind shows a play. A play of "this can't be it", "This idea was from a video, thats not yours". During the day its not verbally articulated in the mind, its more a gut feeling. A feeling of not having it, not getting it, the need to control something and I'm overseeing something.

In the silence everything is gone and there is not reference to something. No Self, no me only this.

2. And say more about how it feels to be with the change?

Answer: Not easy to tell. Its like a dance between: Everything is as it should be and an impatient that nothing is happening. I feel like an dryness and sometimes a indifferents, which is totally in contract to "how I'm into this process". I would call it the most important thing in my life at the moment. Interesting moves by the mind...
One of the major issues that I had before the process was, that I categorized the thoughts as good and bad. And further I tried to control them. This did significantly weakened over the process. So that gives me the feeling that i'm heading to the right direct. Whatever that means.

3. And can an I that does not exist be responsible for looking/seeing?

Answer: True. No this sounds illogical. I guess thats the difference between getting it conceptually and experiencing it. So it seems that the I-thought are not in charge at all, there is something running this whole thing and is totally overlooked.

----------------------

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:No as I can't find a "self, me and I" in the now, it has never been one. Not in the presents, in the future or in the past.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER: The Me seems to be an afterthought, that arise as thought to judge, evaluate or own a experience. i.e. My hand is typing this, the idea and movements are coming from nowhere. When attention and focus is in please, the I does not exists. An really prominent example for me are body sensations and thought... they seem to trigger this afterthought. "I don't like this", "This is dangerous for me", "This thought is bad, I'm a bad person". Further time seems to play a major role. "When is this going to end", "Nothing is happening, this is a waste of time"

In a closer investigation, this sounds really ridiculous as everything is just happening in the now. Past and future are mind constructs.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:
I have difficulties to remember things. It's all a bit fuzzy and as it doesn't really matter. But I try my best:
I was into this topic for couple of month, so I was totally excited to get this thing started. I felt progress from each posting and responds. After couple of days, the thoughts of "I'm not getting it", "I'm losing it" and "I'm faking it and do only rephrase videos" come up. These are coming and going.
There were/are periods which feel pretty "charged", to be honest I can't describe it. In the past I would call them fear, but that's not true anymore.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:
I can't tell.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:
The question of "decision, intention, free will" seems to appear afterwards to explain, judge or discuss in the mind. In the present moment these questions doesn't play any role. This text is coming from nowhere and does need someone to willingly texting this.
Choices are done before the ME thought. Also control seems to be a mind construct as the decision, choice is always coming from nowhere

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:
I really have no clue!

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:
Good question, it seems that the only responsibility that I have is to look. And even that is quite hard as avoidance and other funny tricks show up (bordem, body sensation, visual experiences, thought)

8) Anything to add?

From the deepest of my heart. Thank you for this! Really appreciated.

ANSWER


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