Interested in exploring self/no-self

[Windaway]

There are also all those internal sensations. Are these excluded from "thought"? I also have thought memories of sounds, smells, tastes, etc. There is a "thought" type corresponding to most of my senses.

Internal sensations are sensations.

The sensation of my heart beating is a sensation.
The sensation of my skin is a sensation.
The sensation of wind on my skin is a sensation.

Sensation encompasses an infinite range of expressions including Proprioception, Kinesthetic Sense, and Tactile Sensation.
As those categories are fundamentally the same in direct experience: sensations. Can we agree to put ALL OF THEM in the word sensation?
I am not searching a mental or philosophical agreement. I want you to check if it is true for you in your experience. If not that is fine we will explore it more deeply.

The thought: my stomach. Is a thought.
The thought: my bones. Is a thought.
The image of my brain. Is a thought.
The image of my body. Is thought (mental image)

Thought encompasses an infinite range of expression. There are thought for EVERYTHING.
Let's agree to put all of them in the concept thought.
Is that ok and clear for you?

Thought responds to sensations, perceptions, and other thoughts. There are also thoughts that seem spontaneous like sudden awareness during meditation. I am not sure what it is a "response" to.

I have difficulties understanding you answer.
Maybe the way I formulated the question was not clear enough.

Let's clarify a few definitions and concepts:
awareness is that which is aware of thought, sensations, perceptions (seeing, hearing, tasting,smelling)

Thought overlaps interpretation upon raw sensation and perceptions.
This overlapping I call it projection. You seem to use the word respond.
That is fine for me it is a good word too. But do you agree with me on the meaning of respond?

Can you find a thought?

The finding replaces thoughts, so no.

I don't understand this answer.
Can you express it differently?

No, just broader awareness of internal experience.

What do you mean by internal experience?
Can you find an external experience?
If you can find an external experience wouldn't it be inside your experience?

Can you see that using the world internal or external referring to direct experience makes no sense?

[OfTheField]

Can we agree to put ALL OF THEM in the word sensation?

Yes.

Thought encompasses an infinite range of expression. There are thought for EVERYTHING.
Let's agree to put all of them in the concept thought.
Is that ok and clear for you?

OK, thoughts are verbal or imaginal. I will also call memories of sensations/perceptions: thoughts.

Thought overlaps interpretation upon raw sensation and perceptions.
This overlapping I call it projection. You seem to use the word respond.
That is fine for me it is a good word too. But do you agree with me on the meaning of respond?

Yes, I agree.

Can you find a thought?

The finding replaces thoughts, so no.

I don't understand this answer.
Can you express it differently?

Here is what happens when I try to find a thought:
(1) I close my eyes to reduce perceptions.
(2) An intent thought appears that says, vaguely, "Let's find a thought."
(3) Some kind of effort sensation appears - an inner looking around.
(4) A thought appears that says "Still looking."
(5) A thought appears with ah "That was a thought so I found it."

What do you mean by internal experience?

Perceptions of the standard senses touch/feel/see/smell/hear I call "external" for convenience. Inner sensations, thoughts and perceptions of my body (from the inside) are called "internal".

Can you find an external experience?

No, it's just a tag for the external perception as discussed above.

If you can find an external experience wouldn't it be inside your experience?

It is. Everything is in a singular field.

Can you see that using the world internal or external referring to direct experience makes no sense?

It's just a convenience! I am restating something you know here, but in our physics-oriented world view (which is a thought), we think of (for example) photons starting at a light source, bouncing off objects, then hitting our eyes to "cause" the visual perception. Any perception that is based on this model where perception "travels through a medium" from outside of the skin boundary and ends up at our eyes/ears/mouth/skin/nose is called "external". It has no meaning outside of that.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

OK, thoughts are verbal or imaginal. I will also call memories of sensations/perceptions: thoughts.

You may see this already but I want to be very clear on this.:

Sensations/perceptions are always in the present. You cannot experience sensations/perceptions of the past.
You don't have to call memories of sensations/perceptions: thoughts, because there are no memories of sensations/perceptions.

I am not playing with words here. It is essential to see, that sensation and perception are here and now, and memories in whatever form is thought.

We are maybe saying the same thing in different ways and is a confusion on my part.
It seems important to me, to have clarity on that.

Here is what happens when I try to find a thought:
(1) I close my eyes to reduce perceptions.
(2) An intent thought appears that says, vaguely, "Let's find a thought."
(3) Some kind of effort sensation appears - an inner looking around.
(4) A thought appears that says "Still looking."
(5) A thought appears with ah "That was a thought so I found it."

Ok, so we agree that there is no thought to be found.
Can we agree that there is an experience of thinking,
but no thought to be found?

Perceptions of the standard senses touch/feel/see/smell/hear I call "external" for convenience. Inner sensations, thoughts, and perceptions of my body (from the inside) are called "internal".

Exactly for convenience you can.
What we are doing here basically is to differentiate between what is conceptual (thinking) and actual (direct experience).
Do we agree that there is no experience of inside or outside in Direct experience?

No, it's just a tag for the external perception as discussed above.

So what is here without tags?
What is that, that is present when you put no tag on it?

It is. Everything is in a singular field.

Great!

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is producing thoughts?

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is choosing thoughts?

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is controlling thoughts?

It's just a convenience! I am restating something you know here, but in our physics-oriented world view (which is a thought), we think of (for example) photons starting at a light source, bouncing off objects, then hitting our eyes to "cause" the visual perception. Any perception that is based on this model where perception "travels through a medium" from outside of the skin boundary and ends up at our eyes/ears/mouth/skin/nose is called "external". It has no meaning outside of that.

I understand that it is a convenience.

I am not disputing the usefulness or convenience of this belief for human functioning and communication. I am only saying it has never been proven in direct experience. And I am interested in Direct experience only here.

If you see clearly that this : physics-oriented world view is only a thought. That great!

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Can we agree that there is an experience of thinking,
but no thought to be found?

Yes we agree.

Do we agree that there is no experience of inside or outside in Direct experience?

Yes.

So what is here without tags?
What is that, that is present when you put no tag on it?

That singular consciousness field.

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is producing thoughts?

No.

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is choosing thoughts?

No.

In this singulare field, can you find an individual, a thing, or a mechanism that is controlling thoughts?

No.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Answer from your current experience:
Is there a separate self called Sergey?

Is there a past or future?

How do you relate to your thoughts?

How do you relate to your emotions?

Has your relationship to other people changed?

what happens when conflict/ problems arise?

what is your relationship to life?

Are there doubts? if so please describe them.
If you are not the separate self who are you?

Try to be concise, It should not take a book to answer these questions!

Thoughts, concerns, comments ?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Is there a separate self called Sergey?

No.

Is there a past or future?

I don't know if they "exist" in the same way that I know my shoes exist. In any case, past or future appear as thoughts.

How do you relate to your thoughts?

It varies. Sometimes they feel urgent and true and I believe them (but this is not my preferred way). Sometimes I see them as just thoughts, and they are quieter and less insistent.

How do you relate to your emotions?

It varies. Sometimes I see my body as experiencing sensations and I know these to be emotions. Sometimes I am overwhelmed by my emotions and feel stuck in them as if the underlying interpretation of reality the emotion suggests is true.

Has your relationship to other people changed?

No.

what happens when conflict/ problems arise?

It varies. Sometimes, I find a moment and see the thoughts and sensations that arise, and sometimes I react impulsively without knowing what I'm doing.

what is your relationship to life?

I don't know.

Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

I am not sure if there is free will or if this concept makes sense.

If you are not the separate self who are you?

I don't know.

Thoughts, concerns, comments ?

I know you said that we are not expecting anything in particular to happen, but I can't drop the feeling that actually these exercises are designed to trigger some sudden shift in perspective. I have not had any of these. Only short empty spaces after trying to look to see "if I am not the separate self, then who am I?" and other questions like them.

I know you said keep it short, but my thoughts do not compress well!

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I know you said keep it short, but my thoughts do not compress well!

Don't take this comment personally, I put it all the time.
Your answers are generally short and concise. Which make my guidance more easy.

I am not sure if there is free will or if this concept makes sense.

Ok, we will exploere this free will concept.
Check the exercice at the end.

I know you said that we are not expecting anything in particular to happen, but I can't drop the feeling that actually these exercises are designed to trigger some sudden shift in perspective. I have not had any of these. Only short empty spaces after trying to look to see "if I am not the separate self, then who am I?" and other questions like them.

Well it is a shift in perspective. Imagine 3 people watching a landscape on a TV screen. Someone enter the room and ask:
What are you watching?
The first said :I am watching a landscape.
The secons said: I am watching a tv screen.
The third said: I am watching my experience.

All tree answer are true from their own perceptive. But there is a shift in perspective from one to another. So what you see doesn’t change the way you see does.

I am VERY interested in these “short empty space”. Find this empty space, stay there as much long as it feel natural.

Into this empty space bring hearing inside it, what happens ?
Let hearing go, stay in this raw empty space.

Into this empty space bring sensing inside it, what happens?
Let sensing go, stay in this raw empty space.

Into this empty space bring thinking inside it, what happens ?
Let thinking go, stay in this raw empty space.

Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

[OfTheField]

Hello,

Don't take this comment personally, I put it all the time.

OK!

Into this empty space bring hearing inside it, what happens ?
Let hearing go, stay in this raw empty space.

The empty space becomes entirely hearing. When I try to "let hearing go", it doesn't really go. There is some kind of stickiness to the hearing being there.

Into this empty space bring sensing inside it, what happens?
Let sensing go, stay in this raw empty space.

Same thing. Empty space turns into just sensing, but then I can't let it go.

Into this empty space bring thinking inside it, what happens ?
Let thinking go, stay in this raw empty space.

Somehow the thought is different from the other two. Instead of fully filling the empty space, it seems to appear "in it", and when I try to let go of it, hearing immediately fills the space.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I don't know. Some thoughts appear before the hand is raised, and they are related to the choice of raising hands. But I can't tell if they participate in the "choosing" or not.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I don't know!

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No.

How is the decision made?

I can't tell. This is why I asked the question in the first place!

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

How is the decision made?

I can't tell. This is why I asked the question in the first place!

That is great that you cannot find a controller or a mechanism of control either.

Where you seem to get stuck is in this particular question about how the decision is made.

In other answers you can answer: I don't know.
But on this one, you need to know the answer.

Why do you need to know?

Who is the one who needs to know?

When you ask this question:
How is the decision made?
What is the reaction in the body?

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

Why do you need to know?

Because I'm trying to figure out if free will exists or not or if it's a category error. I experience the making of choices, but I can't pin down how it happens.

Who is the one who needs to know?

The thought "I do" arises in response. It is one of those "I" thoughts that we discussed extensively some dozen or more messages back.

When you ask this question:
How is the decision made?
What is the reaction in the body?

There is chest pain. Similar to the one commonly co-arising with "I" thoughts.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Because I'm trying to figure out if free will exists or not or if it's a category error. I experience the making of choices, but I can't pin down how it happens.

It is very interesting that you do experience the making of choices.
Tell me more about that.

How do you experience the making of choice?

Who is the one choosing?

Who is the one, who experiences that choice?

Whatever an "I thought" is, is that thought choosing?

If a thought cannot choose who/what does?

Who is the one who needs to know?

The thought "I do" arises in response. It is one of those "I" thoughts that we discussed extensively some dozen or more messages back.

We may have discussed this extensively but I am still not clear what you mean by "I" thought.



Take the thought "Lion", the thought "Sergey", and the thought "I".

What is the difference between them in your direct experience?

If you see a difference between them, what is that makes them different?

What is an "I" thought?

There is chest pain. Similar to the one commonly co-arising with "I" thoughts.

Connect with this chest pain. Use the "I" thought or other question that woke up that pain.

Try to stay with that chest pain while letting go of all labels, thoughts beliefs.
Try to feel that sensation as if you were a newborn baby who knows nothing about anything, unable to think with no memory at all.

report back what happens.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

How do you experience the making of choice?

When I look at my hand on the table, it has a certain subtle sensation when it is not moving vs when the "will to move" is active. I tried to find the experience of it switching from being still to "will to move" but I failed. Upon reflection, this inability to find the conscious transition from before-will to during-will has always mystified me.

Who is the one choosing?

I have no idea. I can't find anything.

Who is the one, who experiences that choice?

Even more confusing. There seems to be an "I" here, and I always assumed it was the "I" that also made the choice, but now that I can't find the "I" that makes the choice, the "I" that perceived the choice is just the thought "I".

Whatever an "I thought" is, is that thought choosing?

No.

If a thought cannot choose who/what does?

I don't know! It still strongly feels like something is choosing, but the something has no other trace except the feeling of choosing itself. The hand lays there until it moves. What could make it move? And why? I don't know.

Take the thought "Lion", the thought "Sergey", and the thought "I".

What is the difference between them in your direct experience?

"Lion" and "Sergey" are only a little different. I feel nothing about the lion, and some protectiveness for "Sergey". However, "I" activates an anxious chest feeling.

If you see a difference between them, what is that makes them different?

The main difference is that the "I" thought kicks off emotional sensations of alert and worry.

What is an "I" thought?

These generally appear as answers to question of "who". Like "Who is here?" Sometimes it appears in reference to overall person Sergey, like a pro-noun.

Connect with this chest pain. Use the "I" thought or other question that woke up that pain.

Try to stay with that chest pain while letting go of all labels, thoughts beliefs.
Try to feel that sensation as if you were a newborn baby who knows nothing about anything, unable to think with no memory at all.

report back what happens.

Not too much happened. I stayed with the pain. It generally got less as I kept focusing on it, and my mind would wander off after 5-10s. Then I'd return and try to reactivate it, and repeat this cycle.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

How do you experience the making of choice?

When I look at my hand on the table, it has a certain subtle sensation when it is not moving vs when the "will to move" is active. I tried to find the experience of switching from being still to "will to move" but I failed. Upon reflection, this inability to find the conscious transition from before-will to during-will has always mystified me.

Look at your direct experience and tell me what is your experience of: "will to move"?

So do you experience the making of choice?

If you don't experience the making of choice. I it fair to say that hand on the table and hand moving happens and thoughts produce a sense of choice afterward?

WHAT IS here is ungraspable, incomprehensible, unthinkable.
Nevertheless, here it is.
This process is not really about understanding, it is more about looking at your direct experience AND trusting your exploration and insight. Suppose you can't find the one who chooses in your direct experience. You can stop believing the thoughts ABOUT a chooser.

Who is the one, who experiences that choice?

Even more confusing. There seems to be an "I" here, and I always assumed it was the "I" that also made the choice, but now that I can't find the "I" that made the choice, the "I" that perceived the choice is just the thought "I".

The world "seem" also mean "to appear to be". Thoughts a MASTER in seemingly so.

That is why I focus so much on Direct Experience. Anything can seem to be. But the question is "Is that a fact in my direct experience?"

It seems that there is an "I".
You assume there is an "I".

But, is there an "I" in your experience?

Don't expect thought to stop producing the thought "I".
Be also clear that if there is a thought about an "I" it is proof of the presence of thinking. But it is NOT proof of the presence of an "I".

If a thought cannot choose who/what does?

I don't know! It still strongly feels like something is choosing, but the something has no other trace except the feeling of choosing itself. The hand lays there until it moves. What could make it move? And why? I don't know.

Are you open to the possibility that events are spontaneous?

Are you open to the possibility that you will never know?

You do not strongly feels like something is choosing.
You strongly BELIEVE that something is choosing.
But when you look you don't find anything choosing.
When will you stop believing in this thought?

"Lion" and "Sergey" are only a little different. I feel nothing about the lion, and some protectiveness for "Sergey". However, "I" activates an anxious chest feeling.

Interestingly, some concepts trigger sensation, and some don't trigger sensation.

Is the trigger sensation a proof of the reality of the concept?


If the words "dragons" or "Santa Claus" triggers fear or joy is that proof that dragons and Santa Claus exist?

The main difference is that the "I" thought kicks off emotional sensations of alert and worry.

In this guidance in LU, we are not focused on therapeutical work. Even though they are very useful.
We are focusing on exploring direct experience to see if there is a separate self with free will and choice.

So the "I" thought triggers sensation. But is there an ACTUAL I in you direct experience?

What is an "I" thought?

These generally appear as answers to question of "who". Like "Who is here?" Sometimes it appears in reference to overall person Sergey, like a pro-noun.

The "I" thoughts are as real as "dragons" and "unicorns" thoughts. yes?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Look at your direct experience and tell me what is your experience of: "will to move"?

The direct experience of control I have is (1) the awareness that control is being exerted (similar in quality to awareness of awareness) and (2) the sensation of effort (similar in quality to awareness of directing attention).

So do you experience the making of choice?

I experience (1) and (2) above. I didn't find the actual "making of the choice".

If you don't experience the making of choice. I it fair to say that hand on the table and hand moving happens and thoughts produce a sense of choice afterward?

That doesn't quite fit. The "making a choice" with experiences (1) and (2) happens concurrently with the movement. There is no experience of the sense of choice happening after.

This process is not really about understanding, it is more about looking at your direct experience AND trusting your exploration and insight. Suppose you can't find the one who chooses in your direct experience. You can stop believing the thoughts ABOUT a chooser.

The sensation of conscious movement vs automatic movement does seem to imply a conscious mover... Although as we discussed, the "I" is only a thought and a chest pain. It seems like the "I" is unconnected in direct experience to the awareness of "conscious movement".

But, is there an "I" in your experience?

Just as a thought and a chest pain.

Are you open to the possibility that events are spontaneous?

Are you open to the possibility that you will never know?

You do not strongly feels like something is choosing.
You strongly BELIEVE that something is choosing.
But when you look you don't find anything choosing.
When will you stop believing in this thought?

I am open to the possibility that events are spontaneous, although it is somewhat scary because "free will" is a big part of my conception of how reality works and what it means to act and be responsible. You are right that I don't find "anything" choosing. Just this awareness of conscious choice that has some direct experiential difference from automatic movement. I have always attributed this feeling to being the actual experience of "free will".

Is the trigger sensation a proof of the reality of the concept?

No.

If the words "dragons" or "Santa Claus" triggers fear or joy is that proof that dragons and Santa Claus exist?

No.

So the "I" thought triggers sensation. But is there an ACTUAL I in you direct experience?

No.

The "I" thoughts are as real as "dragons" and "unicorns" thoughts. yes?

This is harder to agree to. "I" thought REFERS partially to this bodymind, which exists. "Dragon" thought refers to nothing physical at all.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

In our discussion, I sensed that you get intellectually that there is no separate self.
I am trying to bring that knowledge to your direct experience. When knowledge touches with actual experience there can be a shift.

But I don't feel I am succeding.

That is why I have asked a fellow guide to give me advice for the next step to take.
His point of view is very interesting.

Here it is:
My sense is that Sergey has seen more than enough to have the shift happen. The difficulty is it doesn't penetrate to the emotional/existential level. It seems he has seen in so many ways that he doesn’t find a self but that for some reason it doesn’t penetrate the emotional/existential level can the two of you together maybe look into what is getting in the way of that, or alternatively what might allow that come about.

Does that make sense to you?

Do you see what is getting in the way of that ?

Do you see what might allow that to come about?

To me it makes sense and I wonder how we can walk in that direction. To have this knowledge reach your emotion and existence.


I want to clarify a little bit the choice belief:

There is always a sense of choice. But you never actually find the individual object that you are choosing from.
Hum that maybe to much at the moment.

Let's approach it that way.:

(A) Do you choose what you like and dislike in food? Do you choose where you like and dislike to travel?
Did you choose to have the skill to get a job that allows you to pay your bills? Or did you choose to don't have skill to get the job of your dream?
My point is that you did not choose the condition from which you base your choices. And you were conditioned by your environment, socitety, politics, genetics, parents, family friends, etc... and you chose none of them.

(B) You are ALWAYS limited in the option between which you choose.


(C) You have no choice about what really matters. When we talk about choice it has to be meaningful choices. What is meaningful is what you feel mostly. Can you choose your emotion?
If you have a friend in jail saying to him that he can choose the color of the wall will probably not make him feel free.
If your friend is dying of cancer saying to him that he can choose between eating a pizza or tacos would most probably not make him feel that he has a choice. Same for depression death, accident etc...

Does that make sense to you?