Newbie to LU, just registered, looking for a guide

[Elad]

Sure, look forward to your responses!

[echoecho]

With love 🌻 Here is also an exercise for you to do. Maybe we will throw in some exercises here and there to deepen seeing:

Introductory Body Exercisee]

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Not at all :)

Does the body have a weight or volume?
I found it easier to feel there was no volume (because I couldn't determine a perimeter or outer boundary). Weight was a difficult one... I guess I didn't feel mass - in that respect i felt weightless or of no mass. but i felt the residual effect of my weight just from gravity pulling me down into the chair.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No shape or form...just amorphous - of no shape or form or fixed in any way.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Hmm...no boundary between body and clothes! I really can't tell any line between the two.

I did mention the body/chair before....BUT if you asked can i spot a "boundary" then no...it just merges together into one blob.

Is there an inside or an outside?
I could not differentiate between inside and outside...it was like just one thing

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly
I don't really feel an inside - I'm not sure what that means. There can't be an inside or outside if there's just one "thing" or space or whatever.

During the eyes-closed 15 min session, my energy did feel infinite in all directions and inseparable from anything - as if everything is made of the same thing (so not really possible to differentiate inside and outside).

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
My answer would mirror the above. There is no outside, like there's no inside - it just feels like one.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The label feels like a very weird construct. (sorry i can't be more precise)

My immediate answer is that it feels like the body doesn't even exist - when i just sit here and feel. It's almost like an imaginary thing - i don't feel it, i can't separate it from "not me".

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

So what is the actual experience of the body during all these activities? Well, its like it isn't there really. It has no feel, weight, is shapeless, and is very hard to notice even when trying hard to notice it.

Finally please also notice, when you describe seing or not, being certain or not, by thinking about how you are across time, a cross the day, etc. are you then referring to direct experience or to thoughts? Where can seeing and certainty happen? In direct experience or based on a story of self across time?

I don't really have thoughts that i can refer back to about how i was (I almost feel like I don't think at all), so I'd have to go to direct experience to answer how i am - but my direct experience is just now. So it sounds ridiculous, but if you asked me how i felt this morning - i could make something up, but I wouldn't be able to tell you authentically, I'd have go back to memory and even then it'd be difficult to answer truthfully and fully.

To be honest i can only see and be certain right here and now (in direct experience). Everything else would be dreamed up, hearsay or speculation.

[Elad]

Beautiful, very clear. Body is a construct!

"Finally please also notice, when you describe seing or not, being certain or not, by thinking about how you are across time, a cross the day, etc. are you then referring to direct experience or to thoughts? Where can seeing and certainty happen? In direct experience or based on a story of self across time?[/b]

I don't really have thoughts that i can refer back to about how i was (I almost feel like I don't think at all), so I'd have to go to direct experience to answer how i am - but my direct experience is just now. So it sounds ridiculous, but if you asked me how i felt this morning - i could make something up, but I wouldn't be able to tell you authentically, I'd have go back to memory and even then it'd be difficult to answer truthfully and fully.

To be honest i can only see and be certain right here and now (in direct experience). Everything else would be dreamed up, hearsay or speculation."

Great. Now I asked this because you expressed doubt if the seeing is completely clear that there is no separate self, no doer. In "explaining" or "justifying" the doubt you referred to a story about you across time. So now please look again the only place that make sense, re your words, *in direct experience* here now.

Is there a separate self or controller or doer in any way or shape or form, was there ever?

Is there any doubt?

Also do this exercise to deepen:

[Elad]

Nature Exercise

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

[echoecho]

Great. Now I asked this because you expressed doubt if the seeing is completely clear that there is no separate self, no doer. In "explaining" or "justifying" the doubt you referred to a story about you across time. So now please look again the only place that make sense, re your words, *in direct experience* here now.

Is there a separate self or controller or doer in any way or shape or form, was there ever?

Is there any doubt?

Hi Elad, I really want to give this question it's due and feel into it, but I've finished work really late today - and I'd prefer not to take the time with this than rush something out late at night, if thats' ok? Also I didn't get a chance to get into nature, but I do have a day off tomorrow, so was also hoping to explore that exercise.

I'll check back in tomorrow!!

[echoecho]

Great. Now I asked this because you expressed doubt if the seeing is completely clear that there is no separate self, no doer. In "explaining" or "justifying" the doubt you referred to a story about you across time. So now please look again the only place that make sense, re your words, *in direct experience* here now.

Is there a separate self or controller or doer in any way or shape or form, was there ever?

Is there any doubt?

Hi Elad, I really want to give this question it's due and feel into it, but I've finished work really late today - and I'd prefer not to take the time with this than rush something out late at night, if thats' ok? Also I didn't get a chance to get into nature, but I do have a day off tomorrow, so was also hoping to explore that exercise.

I'll check back in tomorrow!!

Sorry typo, "I'd prefer to take the time with this " !!!

[Elad]

Great. Now I asked this because you expressed doubt if the seeing is completely clear that there is no separate self, no doer. In "explaining" or "justifying" the doubt you referred to a story about you across time. So now please look again the only place that make sense, re your words, *in direct experience* here now.

Is there a separate self or controller or doer in any way or shape or form, was there ever?

Is there any doubt?

Hi Elad, I really want to give this question it's due and feel into it, but I've finished work really late today - and I'd prefer not to take the time with this than rush something out late at night, if thats' ok? Also I didn't get a chance to get into nature, but I do have a day off tomorrow, so was also hoping to explore that exercise.

I'll check back in tomorrow!!

Sorry typo, "I'd prefer to take the time with this " !!!

Take all the time you want 🙏

[Elad]

Hi Tim, curious how the process have been moving since last?

[echoecho]

Hi Tim, curious how the process have been moving since last?

Hello Elad! It's good to hear from you. Sorry for the extended delay.

Honestly there hasn't been much progress since The Nature Exercise. I did make numerous trips to sit in the park, forests, trails and this just didn't click with me.

What I mean by that is I couldn't draw a line between what the question was asking and my experience. I seem to be so devoid of observations that I find it hard to summarize whatever is going on, on any level.

And that goes for all of the questions.

Nature Exercise

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

For instance, the question "Is there an inside and an outside of Life?" ... I really don't know what this means at the place I am now.

Now I suspect when I had that little shift that you precipitated earlier in our conversations then I could have answered all these questions because it was all screamingly obvious then! But that has been and gone, and I'm back to before.

I have been maintaining daily practice. In fact there's nothing else that really interests me the most - so commitment. or interest isn't an issue at all. Even with no progress so to speak, I enjoy the being immensely - but in terms of "how's it going" I'd say not much since last we spoke...

[Elad]

This is a great place Tim. The false self can never get this or say anything that can feel right about this.

1) So you see that what you take to be you cannot

- control experience
- understand experience
- be found

True?
How does that feel?

2) What if this is it, does that bring up disappointment? If yes, describe it. Otherwise describe what is felt.

[echoecho]

I haven't felt such relief in ages as I did after reading this:

The false self can never get this or say anything that can feel right about this.

It made me feel like I would riding a bike, taking my hands off the handlebars and then closing my eyes - and empowering at the same time.

1) So you see that what you take to be you cannot

- control experience
- understand experience
- be found

True?
How does that feel?

Yes, each of those chime with me. I find them each to be true. Most of all "what you take to be you cannot be found". I've been feeling this for a while now, and I wasn't sure what to make of it.

How does it feel? This is a loaded word, but it feels very liberating! Very freeing, and it makes me feel immense relief too. Because when i tried to locate, describe or ascribe anything to myself, I can't/couldn't exactly - and I suppose as I said before, I didn't know what to make of it. So in a way it was an unresolved mystery (not that I was trying to hard worrying about it) but now you tell me that who I took myself to be can never be found it's like i can stop chasing my tail. And what remains seems clearer.

Also I feel like I can just stop. And rest. It has been all quite exhausting in retrospect.

And the fact that the false self cannot understand experience, (so why keep trying?) is also quite relieving. It makes me understand what people mean by "grace" and i don't need to coerce, corral, or try to sneak up on it!

It's weird but it's like it moves away when I chase it, but comes nearer when I move away.

Thank you Elad :)

[Elad]

Wonderful Tim. And yes, chasing is inherently misunderstanding. We can't hold on to this or catch this, because "we" are not separate from "this".

What is THIS?

Spend some time with this and write me again, what is seen, felt, experienced.

[Elad]

Hi Tim, I feel like checking in, how is life and the process unfolding?

[echoecho]

Hello Elad,

Thank you very much for checking in! I've been quiet in reporting back because I've felt like nothing has happened (in terms of a "shift in identity") although I have had a few pops / blips / glimpses / revelations especially in regards to what you said before

"we" are not separate from "this".

I'm a little slow on the uptake - and although everyone says the mind cannot get this, and its not conceptual - I think they didn't account for dumb I am! Every unfolding I have had is because I've first understood the words conceptually (and then let go of them.)

So, anyway, what I want to say is at first I didn't fully get the sentence ""we" are not separate from "this"."

It look me a long time to fully get what "i" was, what "this" was, and what not separate was. They're all pretty massive and all could be misunderstood, especially as I didn't really know what any of the 3 were exactly.

So as I feel "this" - its the ever present beingness, backdrop, quiet space before, during and after, unchanging and all pervading. It's so constant, that yes it's easy to overlook. But its undeniably always here (the screen to the movie)

And i and that are one and the same. That feels true - i and this are not separate.

(I'm not sure why, but it took my hours of dwelling on this to really get it. I mean before i started, i seemingly got it - but not really.....then hours later...boom....i really did get it....anyway...)

But like other "realizings" (understanding little things along the way - i can't call it "realization") it then seemed to fade and become normalized after a few days. And I almost seem to have forgotten the significance of what seemed to be a monumental aha moment.

I think I said before (in our previous conversations) that's fine too. I don't cling to things like that...but it does feel like the whole "i had it, i lost it" thing. Then i read "you can't lose what you've always had" and I think that's where i am. just stopping and seeing that yes it is here.... (but not yet fully grasping that...or so i think)

So at this point, i'm just looking and looking at myself, to see why i can't simply be here, rest here in awareness. I mean I can for long periods (And try to do so all day long, and actually can with no problem) - but I feel like there's an undercurrent of resistance at times. Which is that all too human condition of unsatisfactoriness, or the built-in drive to be ever-seeking. And even though I feel i've come far in unwinding it - it is still detected somewhere in the background....if i am honest.

I feel like its almost a constant conversation of

- It's right here, you never lost it
- Where?
- Right here
- Right here where?
- Just here, closer than close
- Yeah, but where, I don't see it
- You don't see it, you are it!
- ok, i feel that i am here, and indivisible from "it" ...it is all one - then what?
- no then what, that's it.
- that's it?

"That's it?" - maybe just another mind made thought to throw me off....

Help! :)

p.s. Life is good. Of course lot of things are happening - and some not so happy things - but life is moving nicely.

[Elad]

Thanks for the update Tim, nice to hear from you, and glad to hear life is flowing well.

Okay, lets see if we can both sharpen the understanding, trusting this is part of how you move as you say, and then go beyond it. Seeing is really beyond words and concepts.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Final words for now: I recommend writing often, don't wait to have something clever or profound or special or even new to share. Just share what is seen and felt and observed, what is there and shows up effortlessly and without choice, in response to my questions and exercises. Then the process will do itself. We can't control this anyways. You can't do this. The discovery happens through noticing how experience unfolds by itself, regardless of preferences and judgements (that also happen by themselves). The questions and exercises plus whatever comes up in you as you work with it, will show that. Doesn't matter how stuck or confused or repetitive it seems. In fact those are good doors to help recognize that there is no self in control whatsoever.