Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

[WhoIsAsking]

When you say felt sense of self, how do you experience it?

When I'm not directly experiencing reality, but believe I am the thinker of thoughts, I forget that this sense of self is a thought. In those moments, I feel that I am this "I thought." When I remember to notice (or when remembering / noticing happens!), then the felt sense of self is seen as a thought (and/or a mental image) arising. How I experience the sense of self seems to be very dependent on whether "a thought is seen arising," vs. when "the thought of I arises unquestioned, and is believed to be me."

Do you feel like a doer, someone in control of thoughts and actions?

Sometimes I still do. But less often. That might be the biggest change to have taken place over the last month or so. More often that before, I don't feel like a doer, or someone in control of thoughts and actions. Doing arises. Thinking arises. Actions arise.

[Bluejay]

When I'm not directly experiencing reality, but believe I am the thinker of thoughts, I forget that this sense of self is a thought. In those moments, I feel that I am this "I thought." When I remember to notice (or when remembering / noticing happens!), then the felt sense of self is seen as a thought (and/or a mental image) arising. How I experience the sense of self seems to be very dependent on whether "a thought is seen arising," vs. when "the thought of I arises unquestioned, and is believed to be me."

Got it.

It should eventually shift to where there is no need to even notice or see self as thought. This doesn't mean you are constantly aware or feel a certain way, just that the belief has shifted.

Sometimes I still do. But less often. That might be the biggest change to have taken place over the last month or so. More often that before, I don't feel like a doer, or someone in control of thoughts and actions. Doing arises. Thinking arises. Actions arise.

That's great.

Keep bringing this into daily life whenever possible. Whenever there's a sense of a doer, thinker, etc, look at what is actually there.

Eventually the belief will be seen as false on an experiential level. You can also look back in our thread to previous pointers and do them again or adapt them so you can do them during the day.

Here's one pointer:

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. If it's winter, then see wintery things :)

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colors, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and share what was found :)

[WhoIsAsking]

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

No, there is no boundary. The closest I could find was an imaginary boundary in a story. But in my direct experience, no boundary is found

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No. Even the 'inside of my body,' in direct experience, is either a sensation, or a thought about what must be inside the body.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Nothing at all. All seeing and hearing and thinking arises as one arising. Even when I go into the story of "the wind is blowing and the leaves of that tree are moving," even the wind and the blowing and the tree are undivided.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

It still can feel that way. And that actually feels like progress! :) But when I look for that witness, I find only thoughts, mental images and sensations. Actually looking for the witness (and finding none) seems to help loosen some of these habitual thoughts

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No. It's all just happening. That is so freeing to notice

[Bluejay]

That's great!

Once again, take this into everyday life for the next day or so.

Look for inside/outside, witness, and anything which is not just happening.

And anything else that naturally comes up :)

[WhoIsAsking]

Good morning!

Look for inside/outside, witness, and anything which is not just happening.

The key word here seems to be 'look.' When I remember to look, when looking arises, there is just the unity, the diversity, the totality of THIS. Nothing is excluded. No 'me' participating in the show... just the show. And no inside or outside. Just like there is no good or bad. All is just as it should be (as it must be?). Is there a witness? There is witnessing... and that is enough

And anything else that naturally comes up :)

I'm at the point now where little pointers, little reminders seem to pop up more frequently. And when they do, they seem to 'work.' :) Like the question "what is this?..." sight, sound, thought, mental image... " or "Where is 'me'?... mental image, thought, sensation." And it's clear that there isn't an effort to bring these pointers and questions to consciousness... they just arise. Like everything else.

The other thing is that the phrase "all is welcome" is feeling more true, more obvious, more sincere. Mostly having to do with emotions that arise, like anxiety (anxiety is thoughts and sensations arising... and that's part of the beauty of what is). Also with the behavior / judgements of others... again, it is seen that this is just what's happening, and is therefore welcome.

Not freedom to do anything, or freedom from things I don't want. But freedom for all to be arising and unfolding as it is. The freedom of "all is welcome."

Hope all is well for you. :)

[Bluejay]

Good evening from Europe :)

I'm at the point now where little pointers, little reminders seem to pop up more frequently. And when they do, they seem to 'work.' :) Like the question "what is this?..." sight, sound, thought, mental image... " or "Where is 'me'?... mental image, thought, sensation." And it's clear that there isn't an effort to bring these pointers and questions to consciousness... they just arise. Like everything else.

yup, exactly!

even when there was effort, was there someone efforting?

Not freedom to do anything, or freedom from things I don't want. But freedom for all to be arising and unfolding as it is. The freedom of "all is welcome."

Sounds great.

I would say to just keep noticing in daily life. Whatever is interesting will naturally arise, so keep doing that, and at times, completely 'let go' and just be, if that makes sense.

[WhoIsAsking]

I’ve been very sick the last twelve hours. Seeing through the illusion of self is one thing when all is going well. The ‘self’ seemed as real and solid as ever when I was throwing up during the night. The self and the suffering.

I feel a little bit better now. I’ll continue to see what arises and to directly experience what’s happening. Quite an unexpected practice method.

[Bluejay]

I’ve been very sick the last twelve hours. Seeing through the illusion of self is one thing when all is going well. The ‘self’ seemed as real and solid as ever when I was throwing up during the night. The self and the suffering.

I feel a little bit better now. I’ll continue to see what arises and to directly experience what’s happening. Quite an unexpected practice method.

There are layers to this. Seeing through the separate self doesn't mean all suffering will disappears or all sense of self vanishes, or that difficult emotions won't come up.

Glad you're better :)

[WhoIsAsking]

This continues to be an amazing 'happening'

I would say to just keep noticing in daily life. Whatever is interesting will naturally arise, so keep doing that, and at times, completely 'let go' and just be, if that makes sense.

The latest is the realization that here and now, in direct experience, there is nothing at risk. Anxiety is showing up less often. More importantly, when it does, it is seen as a thought, and usually some physical sensations. I've come up with a dozen sentences to explain this, but none seems to actually describe the 'OK-ness' of this. And that's OK too.

[Bluejay]

Sounds great 👍

Here's a pointer:

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

[WhoIsAsking]

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes, confirmed. Not dark. Not like looking out of these eyes into a pitch-black room. The blackness is full of movement, not static.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No, nothing else was found. Only the 'blackness.'

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

I checked. :) In direct experience, nothing witnessing was found.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

Just the blackness. Nothing outside of it. Nothing separate from it. Of course mental images arise. Sound arises. Sensation arises. But if I look at the 'seeing,' there is only blackness.

What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

Nothing at all. Just thoughts (concepts, ideas, mental images). No see-er.

[Bluejay]

You sound quite clear to me, which makes me want to return to expectations.

What are you expecting to happen that hasn't happened yet that will tell you that you have seen that there is no inherent self?

[WhoIsAsking]

I don't think I expect anything else. I feel like this is it. Nothing has changed. But by somewhat seeing through the recurrent 'me thought,' it's completely OK that nothing has changed. Nothing needs to change. It's all OK.

An example: I applied for a new job recently. Went through five rounds of interviews. Seeing that there is no separate self didn't reduce the drive and ambition. I found out yesterday I didn't get the job. Feelings / thoughts of frustration, disappointment, tears... all still showed up. But there was no separate Jay being those feelings. In this moment, those feeling have passed. That's OK. They may return. That's OK. Nothing has changed. And everything has changed.

I feel like I can talk around the truth, and sound normal. Or try to get closer to the truth, and sound like I'm on drugs. But that's OK too. :) This is what's happening.

[Bluejay]

Ah, okay. That sounds great then!

So can you now say with 100% certainty that there is no inherent self?

What about inside/outside?

What is awareness?

What is a body?

And what about in the intro where you talked about vast spaciousness?

[WhoIsAsking]

I’ll come back soon with a fuller response. But until then, it’s abundantly clear that ‘vast spaciousness’ is just a thought.


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