What is This?

[avva]

The key is to keep separating the senses whenever that happens and stay in direct experience. Really look for the one that is claiming to be there.

There is no self to be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt. It is more like an inner sensation, but when I look there is only a thought. There is no self in direct experience.

The fetter model breaks this down quite well. The separate self is fetter 1, and the complete loss of self/center is fetter 8. So when the separate self is seen through, you see that there is no doer, but you will still feel the aliveness, awareness, presence, and that you are 'here'. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. I will look into it.

Also, look at awareness and aliveness, what is it in direct experience?

They are both sensations in direct experience. There is nothing else, just sensations.
Truth can be summed up in this sentence: There are sensations.

There has never been a self, so how have things been happening?

The body runs on a mind programme, without a controller.

A funny analogy might be: If you see that there is no real santa claus, then how will the kids get their presents?

That is funny.

Can you find someone that is confused, or is there just a thought of confusion?

There is just a thought of confusion.

Do you notice if you're avoiding something?
You can ask: Is there another emotion under this one?

I looked into this. At first I asked: Is there fear? The answer was that the mind is afraid of not knowing, not understanding. Safety lies in knowledge, in understanding what is happening and how things work. One of the biggest fears of the mind is not knowing, not understanding. There is a fear of going into the unknown. There is another fear of going insane. And another of helplessness, of not being able to control the body. It’s like being in surgery when the anaesthesia wears off. You wake up and it hurts but you are still paralysed and cannot communicate with the surgeons. These fears are not experienced strongly though at present.
So I asked, what else is there? Because there is sadness, even depression sometimes. I asked from this feeling in the chest, ‘If you could put your message into words, what would they be?’ And I got this answer: ‘I am not worthy of awakening.’ I was so surprised. So that’s what it is. So I assured myself that there is no such thing as ‘worthy’ and ‘not worthy’. Love doesn’t have to be deserved. It is freely given to every living being. Just open you heart more and love unconditionally. Your love will find its way back to you.
That is how things are now. There is a conviction, a seeing that there is no separate self, but still there is no shift. The clean-up crew is still working.

[avva]

And there is no self that feels unworthy. It is just a thought and a sensation in the chest.

[Bluejay]

And there is no self that feels unworthy. It is just a thought and a sensation in the chest.

Yes. It's good to still feel the sensation fully.

There is no self to be seen, heard, smelled, tasted or felt. It is more like an inner sensation, but when I look there is only a thought. There is no self in direct experience.

Often you have to look over and over until it clicks experientially. So when you see in direct experience that there is no self, stay in that space. Some call it silence, some call it openness. Whatever it is, stay there. It's like you're telling your body 'Look, where is it?'

I looked into this. At first I asked: Is there fear? The answer was that the mind is afraid of not knowing, not understanding. Safety lies in knowledge, in understanding what is happening and how things work. One of the biggest fears of the mind is not knowing, not understanding. There is a fear of going into the unknown. There is another fear of going insane. And another of helplessness, of not being able to control the body. It’s like being in surgery when the anaesthesia wears off. You wake up and it hurts but you are still paralysed and cannot communicate with the surgeons. These fears are not experienced strongly though at present.
So I asked, what else is there? Because there is sadness, even depression sometimes. I asked from this feeling in the chest, ‘If you could put your message into words, what would they be?’ And I got this answer: ‘I am not worthy of awakening.’ I was so surprised. So that’s what it is. So I assured myself that there is no such thing as ‘worthy’ and ‘not worthy’. Love doesn’t have to be deserved. It is freely given to every living being. Just open you heart more and love unconditionally. Your love will find its way back to you.
That is how things are now. There is a conviction, a seeing that there is no separate self, but still there is no shift. The clean-up crew is still working.

This was a really good exploration. It may also help to just be with this feeling of unworthiness if it is persistent. See it like a child that just wants to be heard. Feel it fully and let it expand in the body.

Yes, the shift often needs looking over and over. If frustration and boredom come for a visit, that's often a good sign.

The body runs on a mind programme, without a controller.

This might be relevant now (emptiness + dependent origination).

Here's a 90 second video on emptiness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc4OGA

Emptiness means empty of independent existence. Meaning, an inherent existence that is unchanging and permanent.

Do you see what is meant by dependent existence (dependent on causes, conditions, etc)?

Can you see how the separate self is empty?

[avva]

This is being recognised now:
The body moves – that is in direct experience, that is reality. What thoughts add after that (‘I did that’, etc.) is a lie. Thoughts happen – that is in direct experience, that is reality. What the thoughts talk about is a lie (egg. ‘I thought that.’). Thoughts are just background noise like the sounds coming from the street. I cannot not hear them, but just like with the sounds from the street, there is nothing to do with them. No reaction is necessary.
I also realised that not only thoughts are in the category of fantasy, but also ‘the thinker’, ‘the doer’, ‘the experiencer’. These are also just concepts. There is no-one here that controls what views are seen, what sounds are heard, or what smells are smelled. There are sensations, that’s all.
Feelings are felt. They are happening to no-one. Identification with the one who doesn’t understand is dropped. Identification with the one who is unworthy, helpless, hopeless, afraid, is dropped. The sensations in the body are real. They are felt deeply. They are allowed to be, without believing the thoughts that accompany them.

Can you see how the separate self is empty?

There is a vague understanding but some explanation would be appreciated, please.
There is an understanding that the separate self is not permanent and it is forever changing. It is changing with time and depends on who ‘the person’ is communicating with. Its very existence depends on thought. At night, when we are in deep sleep, there is no self because there is no thought.

[Bluejay]

Feelings are felt. They are happening to no-one. Identification with the one who doesn’t understand is dropped. Identification with the one who is unworthy, helpless, hopeless, afraid, is dropped. The sensations in the body are real. They are felt deeply. They are allowed to be, without believing the thoughts that accompany them.

👍

There is a vague understanding but some explanation would be appreciated, please.
There is an understanding that the separate self is not permanent and it is forever changing. It is changing with time and depends on who ‘the person’ is communicating with. Its very existence depends on thought. At night, when we are in deep sleep, there is no self because there is no thought.

The separate self being empty simply means it is empty of self-nature. There is no selfhood in avva that is the self. The separate self exists when two or more senses come together that are being interpreted as 'self'.

In this sense, it is dependent on conditions, personality, conditioning from society, language, thoughts, and so on.

The separate self is neither permanent or impermanent. It does not change, because it is not there.

What is it that would be changing?

When you look at a school, does a school exist, or are there buildings, students, parking lots, books, and so on?

[avva]

The separate self exists when two or more senses come together that are being interpreted as 'self'.

I don’t understand this. Could you please explain?

In this sense, it is dependent on conditions, personality, conditioning from society, language, thoughts, and so on.

I think language is a kind of conditioning already. Conditions? Personality?
I think it is mostly dependent on state of mind (awake or asleep, is that what you mean by conditions?) and the presence of thought/language. Without thought there is no 'I'. Without language there is no 'I'. There are only sensations.

What is it that would be changing?

It is not the self per se that changes but the sense of self, or rather, its constituents. The thoughts, the feelings, the judgements, the interpretations, the self image, etc. All the thoughts/beliefs that make up the sense of self. Even the memories change with time. The likes and dislikes, the preferences, the worries, the opinions. The self image drastically changes depending on the social role one is playing (eg. boss or employee, mother or child, man or woman, etc.), and is different with every single person, depending on the image we have of them, the guesswork of what they might think of us and the relationship between us.

When you look at a school, does a school exist, or are there buildings, students, parking lots, books, and so on?

Yes, I realise that ‘school’ doesn’t exist. It is just a category. The ‘I’ is just a label we give to a collection of thoughts.
The mind here is already convinced that there is no ‘I’ but there is no change is perception. Perhaps more meditation would help. Or giving up altogether.

[avva]

Perhaps ego has morphed into a spiritual ego that says 'There is no 'I'.'

[avva]

There might be something that is still not clear. The mind calls itself 'I'. I understand that it is just a label, a wird, a thought. 'Mind' is also just a word, a label. We could say 'brain'. Mind is not an object but brain is, isn't it? Does it mean that there is no brain? How can the brain find itself in direct experience? Back to square 1.

[Bluejay]

I don’t understand this. Could you please explain?

If you look in just sensations, is there a self there?

What about just sounds?

When two or more sensations become entangled, it's much easier for there to be a feeling of self. This is why it's so powerful so separate the senses like you learned in that pointer a bit earlier.

Does that make sense?

I think language is a kind of conditioning already. Conditions? Personality?
I think it is mostly dependent on state of mind (awake or asleep, is that what you mean by conditions?) and the presence of thought/language. Without thought there is no 'I'. Without language there is no 'I'. There are only sensations.

Absolutely. Language is one condition.

You are correct that without thought there is no "I".

What I was getting at was to look at all the conditions necessary to make anything happen. This isn't too important right now, but I wanted to introduce it to you. Let it simmer a bit :)

Yes, I realise that ‘school’ doesn’t exist. It is just a category. The ‘I’ is just a label we give to a collection of thoughts.
The mind here is already convinced that there is no ‘I’ but there is no change is perception. Perhaps more meditation would help. Or giving up altogether.

Notice that the sense of self may be trying to stay alive by trying to find something to do in order to make the change in perception happen.

Is there something that is not happening automatically?

Can you stop sounds, sensations, smells, or tastes? Can you stop the mind?

Do you think thoughts, or do they just happen? What about impulses? Is there control there?

If not, then isn't this process just happening? Even this inquiry is just 'life' typing to itself, to use poetic language.

It is not the self per se that changes but the sense of self, or rather, its constituents. The thoughts, the feelings, the judgements, the interpretations, the self image, etc. All the thoughts/beliefs that make up the sense of self. Even the memories change with time. The likes and dislikes, the preferences, the worries, the opinions. The self image drastically changes depending on the social role one is playing (eg. boss or employee, mother or child, man or woman, etc.), and is different with every single person, depending on the image we have of them, the guesswork of what they might think of us and the relationship between us.

Is the self changing, or are the thoughts about self changing?

Do you notice the difference?

There might be something that is still not clear. The mind calls itself 'I'. I understand that it is just a label, a wird, a thought. 'Mind' is also just a word, a label. We could say 'brain'. Mind is not an object but brain is, isn't it? Does it mean that there is no brain? How can the brain find itself in direct experience? Back to square 1.

Relatively speaking, there is a brain, body, and everything else. But in direct experience, can we find a brain? We only find seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting, and thinking.

So is a brain trying to find itself, or are there only thoughts about finding something with senses dancing?

You said there is no perspective shift: What do you expect to happen when there is a shift?

[avva]

If you look in just sensations, is there a self there?

No.

What about just sounds?

No.

When two or more sensations become entangled, it's much easier for there to be a feeling of self. This is why it's so powerful to separate the senses like you learned in that pointer a bit earlier.

Like when the hand is moving, and there is a sense of the body moving, the sight of the hand movement, the sensation of a point of view and a thought that says ‘I did that’ all jumbled up together?

Is there something that is not happening automatically?

No. But it feels like there is a ‘me’ choosing to do things. The body runs on a programme. Is it possible that this programme calls itself ‘I’? There is a thought of being 'stuck' with this question.

Can you stop sounds, sensations, smells, or tastes? Can you stop the mind?

No. I can’t control those things.

Do you think thoughts, or do they just happen?

They just happen. Every time there is a feeling of identification with the thinker the reminder comes that the thoughts are just happening.

What about impulses? Is there control there?

No. They just appear.

Is the self changing, or are the thoughts about self changing?

The thoughts about the self.

Do you notice the difference?

Yes.

So is a brain trying to find itself, or are there only thoughts about finding something with senses dancing?

The are thoughts about looking for the self and not finding anything. But isn’t it like the eyes not seeing themselves?
Who is looking for the self? There is no-one looking. The thought of looking just happens.

You said there is no perspective shift: What do you expect to happen when there is a shift?

No more identification with avva, the thinker, the doer, the experiencer – ever. No more seeking. No more frustration.

[avva]

I am reading this right now: https://www.simplytheseen.com/5-practic ... quiry.html

I think this paragraph describes where I am now:

During any step of inquiry, what I call a “holding pattern” can arise, where you have looked and looked from every angle, and yet the belief which underlies the fetter has not disappeared. It can be confusing, frustrating, and even disheartening, and you might wonder at some point if you will ever “get it”. It may be that since you know you will never find what you are searching for, there can be a tendency to more or less give up, perhaps because it starts to seem pointless to look for something you know you’ll never find. Or, doubts such as “this is a fetter I cannot break” may arise, perhaps because of past conditioning around your ability or worth.

[Bluejay]

Like when the hand is moving, and there is a sense of the body moving, the sight of the hand movement, the sensation of a point of view and a thought that says ‘I did that’ all jumbled up together?

Yes. Another example would be when there is a thought "I'm going to get something to drink" with a sensation in the chest which is labeled as me.

No. But it feels like there is a ‘me’ choosing to do things.

How is this 'me' choosing exactly? Describe the process step-by-step of how it happens, not just 'there is no one', but look at the process.

And where is the 'me' that is choosing?

The body runs on a programme. Is it possible that this programme calls itself ‘I’? There is a thought of being 'stuck' with this question.[

Can you find this programme, or just a thought about a programme?

Can you find something or someone that is stuck or just a thought about being stuck?

What is being referred to here? Follow the trail to the end.

But isn’t it like the eyes not seeing themselves?
Who is looking for the self? There is no-one looking. The thought of looking just happens.

Notice that the thought appears "But isn't it..." and that is taken as something to consider. In other words, there is identification with thought, and the sense of trying to figure this out.

This process itself is what stands in the way, and often it is a consequence of not wanting to be fully right here, right now. There is something that you don't want to feel. There is a feeling of "But this isn't it..."

No more identification with avva, the thinker, the doer, the experiencer – ever. No more seeking. No more frustration.

Can you describe more what no more identification with avva looks like?
What will happen when identification ends?
Does identification mean no sense of any avva or any contraction at all?

Seeking can still happen even after seeing through separate self. Seeking will depend on conditioning and how emotions are avoided.

Frustration is highly likely to happen since that is fetter 4/5.

I think this paragraph describes where I am now:

During any step of inquiry, what I call a “holding pattern” can arise, where you have looked and looked from every angle, and yet the belief which underlies the fetter has not disappeared. It can be confusing, frustrating, and even disheartening, and you might wonder at some point if you will ever “get it”. It may be that since you know you will never find what you are searching for, there can be a tendency to more or less give up, perhaps because it starts to seem pointless to look for something you know you’ll never find. Or, doubts such as “this is a fetter I cannot break” may arise, perhaps because of past conditioning around your ability or worth.

This is to be expected. As the inquiry goes deeper, all obstacles are thrown at you to stop. This means frustration, sadness, despair, existential terror, fear, and so on.

[avva]

Yes. Another example would be when there is a thought "I'm going to get something to drink" with a sensation in the chest which is labelled as me.

Yes. There is a knot in the stomach when I think of ‘I’. All ‘negative’ emotions are felt there too.

How is this 'me' choosing exactly? Describe the process step-by-step of how it happens, not just 'there is no one', but look at the process.

There is a thought that says ‘I am going to lift my right hand.’ When the ‘I’ word is in the sentence, the knot is felt in the stomach. There is a sensation and the sight of the right hand lifting. There is a thought afterwards: ‘I did that.’

Code: Select all

And where is the 'me' that is choosing?

That is the thought that says ‘I am going to lift my right hand.’ And the one that says ‘I did that.’
But what does the ‘I’ refer to? I wonder.
If I perform complicated hand movements, there is no pre-thought (‘I am going to do that’). All these complicated movements cannot be put into thoughts/words. The one who is thinking is not the one who is moving the body. In direct experience the body moves on its own.

There are thoughts here that say: ‘The left brain is the thinker brain that made up a story about an ‘I’ that controls the body. The body is actually moved by the right brain, but the right brain is non-verbal (unconscious) and cannot say ‘I’. Neither the left brain, nor the right brain is a person, an ‘I’. The brain runs on a programme (determined by genes and conditioning). The left brain cannot accept the fact that life is unknowable and uncontrollable (from its point of view), so it makes up the story of ‘me’, to provide the mind with a false sense of security and control. The process of awakening is the attempt of the left-brain to control the right brain by penetrating into the unconscious realms of the right brain through meditation and mindfulness. Gradually the left brain sheds more and more light into the right brain (making more and more unconscious processes conscious), gaining more and more conscious control, until it can even consciously control breathing and heartbeat (see yogis). The whole process changes both the left and the right brain, and in the end there is a blended brain that finally accepts that life is uncontrollable and unknowable and is perfectly happy with it.’
Because these thoughts are happening here, they are obstructing the realisation that there is no ‘I’, because when I ask ‘who is in control of the body?’ the thought appears ‘the right brain’ instead of ‘no-one’. When I ask the question ‘who is in control of the thoughts?’ the thought appears ‘the left brain’, instead of ‘no-one’.
If reality is unknowable then all thoughts must be rubbish, including the above theory.
ALL THOUGHTS ARE RUBBISH!

Can you find this programme, or just a thought about a programme?

These are all just thoughts. They cannot be found in direct experience.

Can you find something or someone that is stuck or just a thought about being stuck?

It is just a thought.

This process itself is what stands in the way, and often it is a consequence of not wanting to be fully right here, right now. There is something that you don't want to feel. There is a feeling of "But this isn't it..."

Why is that? What is it that I am avoiding? There is confusion and desperation and frustration and depression. Fear must be buried very deeply, because I cannot feel it, even if I am sitting quietly and allowing all feelings to come.

Can you describe more what no more identification with avva looks like?
What will happen when identification ends?
Does identification mean no sense of any avva or any contraction at all?

There will be n more identification with the body, the mind, the thinker, the doer, the experiencer.

Seeking can still happen even after seeing through separate self. Seeking will depend on conditioning and how emotions are avoided.

Great.

Frustration is highly likely to happen since that is fetter 4/5.

Great.

This is to be expected. As the inquiry goes deeper, all obstacles are thrown at you to stop. This means frustration, sadness, despair, existential terror, fear, and so on.

I have noticed that distraction is the main weapon at this stage. And restlessness. I can’t sit still and meditate. Thoughts are constantly distracting the meditation. Focusing is difficult.

[Bluejay]

Because these thoughts are happening here, they are obstructing the realisation that there is no ‘I’, because when I ask ‘who is in control of the body?’ the thought appears ‘the right brain’ instead of ‘no-one’. When I ask the question ‘who is in control of the thoughts?’ the thought appears ‘the left brain’, instead of ‘no-one’.
If reality is unknowable then all thoughts must be rubbish, including the above theory.
ALL THOUGHTS ARE RUBBISH!

You give your thoughts too much authority. As you noted, thoughts don't know anything.

Go back to the inquiry where we separated the senses. If there is a thought that says "The left brain controls thoughts."

Look at the words "The left brain controls thoughts," is that the controller?
If there is a sensation in the body, is that sensation the controller?

Look for something concrete. Don't get stuck in thinking about this. Focus on direct experience. Each time there is a sense of self, separate and look.

Why is that? What is it that I am avoiding? There is confusion and desperation and frustration and depression. Fear must be buried very deeply, because I cannot feel it, even if I am sitting quietly and allowing all feelings to come.

Try negative sentences like:

- I'm not afraid of seeing that there is no inherent self
- I'm not sad / angry / etc
- It's okay for me to see that thoughts don't know anything

There will be n more identification with the body, the mind, the thinker, the doer, the experiencer.

There will likely be some identification with the body and mind, but the belief in a doer, thinker, experiencer will be seen to be false.

I have noticed that distraction is the main weapon at this stage. And restlessness. I can’t sit still and meditate. Thoughts are constantly distracting the meditation. Focusing is difficult.

Yes, that is very common. There's restlessness and avoidance. Just do your best and see the avoidance as a sign that there's fruitful inquiry there.

Look at what is trying to be avoided. What is being protected?

It can feel extremely uncomfortable but there's is nothing dangerous there. Only sensations.

That is the thought that says ‘I am going to lift my right hand.’ And the one that says ‘I did that.’
But what does the ‘I’ refer to? I wonder.

Again, is there an actual I doing something, or just thought about an I?

There is a thought that says ‘I am going to lift my right hand.’ When the ‘I’ word is in the sentence, the knot is felt in the stomach. There is a sensation and the sight of the right hand lifting. There is a thought afterwards: ‘I did that.’

Look at the sensations in the stomach. Is there an I there that is controlling something?

Also try this:

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[avva]

Hi Henri
Last night there was finally a seeing of how the word 'I' was empty, that it referred to nothing, that it was completely unnecessary. There is a programme running in the body, that is all. When the hearing programme detects a noise, it says 'A noise can be detected', which is translated by the mind as 'I can hear a train passing by'. The train bit is neccessary but the 'I' bit is not.
Then there was a lot of crying about feeling helpless and hopeless. Then even more crying about core wounds and guilt. This morning there was crying about grief felt because there was no 'me'. All feelings are allowed to be.