Help with Rooting out Beliefs, Habits, and Patterns

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

Sounds like a great plan :)

How is life these days?

In a word, I'd describe it as "settled." There are still "challenges" and "difficulties," of course, but in general, things feel smooth and easy.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

Hmm...in terms of changes, from a "outside" perspective as if someone were watching a movie of my daily life, things look pretty similar. I still do the same job, live in the same place, participate in the same activities, have the same food preferences, etc.

However, a few things are undeniably "different." I'm much less reactive to things that used to upset me. I'm much less likely to be caught up in believing the content of a thought storm or engage in an argumentative conversation in my head. When these things happen, I see them for what they are-meaningless thoughts.

Next, my experience of the visual field has gone through some changes. When I am still and silent, boundaries visually appear more fluid, less defined. I'd describe it as a less intense version of certain psychedelic trips I've taken in the past. It also is much easier to come into contact with the physical sensations labelled "body" while enjoying the pleasantness of them as just sensation.

Also, oddly, it's much easier to breathe through both nostrils, now. I seem to breathe easier. Finally, I'm significantly more patient in traffic and in lines, and I cry much more easily at movies and TV shows.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

Fewer expectations around what "progress" would look like, and the realization that there may still be a bit of an identity lurking around having had certain "spiritual experiences" as a way to feel special.

Is seeking still going on?

Sort of, sometimes. There's a sense that things aren't quite "finished."

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Along those same lines, perhaps you can clarify something that may be a misplaced expectation. It feels like there may be a bit of natural, effortless joy and love "missing." Right now, my default state of experience is neutrality. And maybe that's all there is, right? Maybe joyousness and pervasive love is misplaced expectation, believing thoughts about "wanting to feel a certain way." I'd love your input here :)

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes. It's just a thought, a false belief in an entity and an identity that isn't there, and never was. The concept of separation is nonsensical at this point :)

Thank you!

-Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

However, a few things are undeniably "different." I'm much less reactive to things that used to upset me. I'm much less likely to be caught up in believing the content of a thought storm or engage in an argumentative conversation in my head. When these things happen, I see them for what they are-meaningless thoughts.

That’s awesome!

Along those same lines, perhaps you can clarify something that may be a misplaced expectation. It feels like there may be a bit of natural, effortless joy and love "missing." Right now, my default state of experience is neutrality. And maybe that's all there is, right? Maybe joyousness and pervasive love is misplaced expectation, believing thoughts about "wanting to feel a certain way." I'd love your input here :)

All enlightenment searches are built on the expectation that says, Once we get “there,” life is going to be so easy and blissful, happy ever after. Seeking is based on the expectation of finding lasting happiness by trying to fix something that is not as it should be. Seeking and expectation are a process driven by the belief that something needs to happen in order to be content and happy now. Peace and joy are here but are not noticed as the mind is busy creating I can’t wait for this to happen scenarios, constantly dreaming about something else. Notice expectations as they arise and see how they hold an image of how it should be in contrast to how it is. Feel the gap. Notice the tension that is connected to the wanting. Feel the sensation. The tension is fear that expectations won’t be met. There are also feelings of sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, and/or hopelessness, and they are all linked to expectation. If one can let go of wants, should’s, and should not’s, resistance is released too. No more expectations, no more fear that they won’t be met, no more resistance to what is here now. In the end, all that is left is surrender. It is ironic as the more you pursue Happiness/Bliss the more you don’t find it. The “natural, effortless joy and love” are already here - just look behind the curtain of expectations. They come with surrendering to what IS, finding the beauty of just THIS. At the end of the day THIS will happen the way it will happen with or without your approval (thoughts). Present moment is just one present moment, and has nothing to do with a duration of a certain state (i.e. happiness and bliss). States come and go like everything else. Feeling all emotions is the same as living life fully; experiencing all, without thinking that it should be different.

Fewer expectations around what "progress" would look like, and the realization that there may still be a bit of an identity lurking around having had certain "spiritual experiences" as a way to feel special.

Do you see an “identity” “lurking” or thoughts about “identity”? There is a huge difference…

What discerns it, distinguishes it, filters this identity out from "not me", etc.?
If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it?
When there is a sense of "me", and thus "not me" as well, look for what "in here" looks out at what is "out there" (i.e., "not me")?
When you say identity: is identity with an aspect of experience, or identity as an aspect of experience? Is/was there a difference between identifying with and identifying as something?
Does it seem as though there is something of a separation to experience, by which there is a “me” side (identity) and a “not me” side? Does it feel as though you take a subtle step back from experience, into your side? Does there seem to be both an inner and an outer aspect to experience? Does it feel like you are awareness, consciousness, one with everything, or presence? Is there a subtle sense of comfort, stability or reliability in affirming your existence? Now, close your eyes and allow all thoughts and images to again fade. What happens to the sense of “I” or “me”? What happens to the sense of there being an inner and outer aspect to experience?
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

That’s awesome!

Thank you! :)

Seeking is based on the expectation of finding lasting happiness by trying to fix something that is not as it should be. Seeking and expectation are a process driven by the belief that something needs to happen in order to be content and happy now.

This is a good point, because I'm not experiencing (let alone believing) thoughts that explicitly say, "It shouldn't be like this."
The seeking I referred to is sort of...weak or half-hearted, I guess. Like, I know this isn't for anyone or anything, it almost feels like "residue," is how I would describe it. Does that make sense? I have another question on this regard. I've yet to hear a satisfactory answer on this. Let's say I'm sitting on the couch, and the thought comes, "I want some ice cream." If that thought is acted upon, is this automatically a seeking that indicates resistance to the present moment?

The way I currently treat this is, "It's just a thought. Sometimes an action follows that seems to correlate with the content of the thought (but doesn't actually because that's more thought), and sometimes it doesn't. Either way, it's all still just experiencing.

The tension is fear that expectations won’t be met. There are also feelings of sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, and/or hopelessness, and they are all linked to expectation.

Luckily, this doesn't seem to be happening. Or when it does, it's pretty easy to sit with and feel without resisting.

In the end, all that is left is surrender. It is ironic as the more you pursue Happiness/Bliss the more you don’t find it. The “natural, effortless joy and love” are already here - just look behind the curtain of expectations. They come with surrendering to what IS, finding the beauty of just THIS. At the end of the day THIS will happen the way it will happen with or without your approval (thoughts).

Excellent reminders :) I'll continue to integrate this.

Do you see an “identity” “lurking” or thoughts about “identity”? There is a huge difference…

Good old language again, eh? :)

More a tendency to catch "myself" temporarily believing thoughts that would indicate superiority. Maybe like a "reactivity trigger," thought I know that's not actually a thing with inherent existence.

What discerns it, distinguishes it, filters this identity out from "not me", etc.?

Nothing.

If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it?
When there is a sense of "me", and thus "not me" as well, look for what "in here" looks out at what is "out there" (i.e., "not me")?

Having these specific questions to look at, it's obvious that these are just thoughts.

When you say identity: is identity with an aspect of experience, or identity as an aspect of experience? Is/was there a difference between identifying with and identifying as something?

They seem basically the same principle, with identifying as being the more extreme of the two, I guess.

Does it seem as though there is something of a separation to experience, by which there is a “me” side (identity) and a “not me” side?

Nope.

Does it feel as though you take a subtle step back from experience, into your side?

No.

Does there seem to be both an inner and an outer aspect to experience?

No. In fact, in the past few days, I've noticed a marked shift in the tendency to just feel sensation as sensation, rather than reflexively labeling it "such and such part of 'my' body." And this inseparably all blends in with hearing, seeing, etc.

Does it feel like you are awareness, consciousness, one with everything, or presence?

Not really. I wouldn't describe it this way. Thought has never really gravitated to those labels. It's more like, just experiencing.

Is there a subtle sense of comfort, stability or reliability in affirming your existence?

If there is, I haven't noticed it. I'm not exactly sure where I would look, though.

Now, close your eyes and allow all thoughts and images to again fade. What happens to the sense of “I” or “me”? What happens to the sense of there being an inner and outer aspect to experience?

Without thought, there is no sense of "I" or "me," or inner/outer.


Thank you,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

The seeking I referred to is sort of...weak or half-hearted, I guess. Like, I know this isn't for anyone or anything, it almost feels like "residue," is how I would describe it. Does that make sense?

Good!

I have another question on this regard. I've yet to hear a satisfactory answer on this. Let's say I'm sitting on the couch, and the thought comes, "I want some ice cream." If that thought is acted upon, is this automatically a seeking that indicates resistance to the present moment?

Haha… Not necessarily. It could also be a description of a need or an "action that will follow" – similar to I am hungry. Ultimately, “you” don’t need to do anything. Just watch how sometimes you get off the couch to get some ice cream and sometimes you don’t (with thoughts about how it’s not healthy :)). Scientist explain these cravings with gut bacteria sending messages to your brain, but in DE it’s simple – it just either happens or does not.
Resistance is not a real thing – it’s just a story that comes along the experience. Thoughts don’t do anything but describe. So resistance is a tool for discovering unchecked stories…
In general, you can examine all fields of attachments, wants, and desires, by separating the raw sensations (or other experience) from the thoughts and staying in that gap weakening the intensity of the “unwanted” sensation/experience that is present and in need of replacement with a "wanted" one. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it (e.g. taking a painkiller for pain, or eating when you are hungry). If not, just watch, smile, and release.

More a tendency to catch "myself" temporarily believing thoughts that would indicate superiority. Maybe like a "reactivity trigger," thought I know that's not actually a thing with inherent existence

Yes! Are you the believer of thoughts or there are simply thoughts about believing that come along the other thoughts?
That is why I asked you if you identify “with” or “as” the experience (e.g. thoughts)

Just to make it clear:

I identify as thoughts (for example) – I=thoughts (totally defined by it)
I identify with thoughts - I agree with thoughts (I am similar to what thoughts say)

Without thought, there is no sense of "I" or "me," or inner/outer.

Very good!

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

Is there anything else that you want to explore together? We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Haha… Not necessarily. It could also be a description of a need or an "action that will follow" – similar to I am hungry. Ultimately, “you” don’t need to do anything. Just watch how sometimes you get off the couch to get some ice cream and sometimes you don’t (with thoughts about how it’s not healthy :)). Scientist explain these cravings with gut bacteria sending messages to your brain, but in DE it’s simple – it just either happens or does not.

This was incredibly helpful, thank you :)

It either happens or does not. That's all.

Resistance is not a real thing – it’s just a story that comes along the experience. Thoughts don’t do anything but describe. So resistance is a tool for discovering unchecked stories…
In general, you can examine all fields of attachments, wants, and desires, by separating the raw sensations (or other experience) from the thoughts and staying in that gap weakening the intensity of the “unwanted” sensation/experience that is present and in need of replacement with a "wanted" one. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it (e.g. taking a painkiller for pain, or eating when you are hungry). If not, just watch, smile, and release.

Again, super helpful and useful!

Yes! Are you the believer of thoughts or there are simply thoughts about believing that come along the other thoughts?

There are simply thoughts about believing :) Thoughts about thoughts haha.

Just to make it clear:

I identify as thoughts (for example) – I=thoughts (totally defined by it)
I identify with thoughts - I agree with thoughts (I am similar to what thoughts say)

Helpful distinction, thank you. So, identifying as thoughts feels ludicrously impossible now. Agreeing with thoughts on the other hand, still seems to happen until caught. But as you pointed out, "I agree," or "Yes, that's correct," are just more thoughts. Thoughts about thoughts.

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

This weekend will provide a perfect opportunity, here. I'll be out of town with very limited access to internet, so I'll report back with my findings on Monday.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together? We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

I'll answer those next week after the above ones :)

Thanks a ton again for all your help!

-Greg

[poppyseed]

Hey

This weekend will provide a perfect opportunity, here. I'll be out of town with very limited access to internet, so I'll report back with my findings on Monday.

Enjoy!

Is there anything else that you want to explore together? We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

I'll answer those next week after the above ones :)

Great!
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg
Are we still doing this?
Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

We are still doing this, my apologies!

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

Absolutely not :)

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

Just a thought.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

No. The question doesn't really make sense ;) Especially in light of the next question...

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

Nope.

Is there an owner of being?

Definitely not.

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

No, only in thought content, not in DE.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together?

Not at the moment, no. I will post a question if anything comes up within the next day or two :)

We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

Yes, please :)


Kind regards,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg

Not at the moment, no. I will post a question if anything comes up within the next day or two :)

You’re more than welcome to post a question even after your thread has been moved to the archives. It will still notify me and we can carry on :)
Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

You’re more than welcome to post a question even after your thread has been moved to the archives. It will still notify me and we can carry on :)

Great news! Thank you and I really appreciate that :)

Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Great, I'll tackle these bit by bit.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. The concept of "separate" now makes no sense. And no such separate entity was ever there.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is simply beliefs and thought content. It's a bit difficult to articulate further, but it's a thought that says, "I am inherently different and distinct from x, y, and z." It starts when this thought is believed and identified as "me," and other "things" as "not me." The illusion is furthered by not understanding that thoughts can be wrong, which makes it easier to identify with them. But at the end of the day, it's all just thought.

Now, I see clearly how this separate self is just thought content, arising randomly. That's all it is and ever was.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like relief, freedom, and relaxation. There's nothing that needs defending or protecting. Thoughts are less likely to be believed, and I'm no longer looking for fireworks or any special type of experience. It's easier to remember just to be. That's all there is.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A realization that the activity/identity I used to define myself for most of my life, "good soccer player" had brought more pain and suffering than joy.

I'll tackle the rest later in the week :)

Thank you!

-Greg

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Hope you're doing well. I'm finally back :)

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

The course of action just seems to arise. This morning, I "decided" to do my laundry before responding to this post. However, it just sort of happened. Thought content had nothing to do with it.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is thought content. A thought that says, "I intend to work out today," doesn't have any effect on whether or not this happens.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

All of these are illusory. I can give no actual examples from direct experience :)

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Life makes things happen. But I have no idea how it works :)

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I can't find any.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing at this time. Simply a thank you for your guidance, help, and of course, patience :)

With love,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
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Looking forward to seeing YOU!
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(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
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Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
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Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali

[greggieP]

Hi Rali,

Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers!

Thank you, for both statements :)

I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

That would be lovely, thank you!

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

Indeed :)

I think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

I'd certainly be interested, thank you! How did you know when you were ready to start guiding?

And thank you so much for providing all of those resources!

With love,
Greg

[poppyseed]

Hi Greg
I inboxed you my details :)

I'd certainly be interested, thank you! How did you know when you were ready to start guiding?

The same way you make any other decision. You just start doing it :). You'll be added to groups on Facebook (provided you have an account) and you will find plenty of information about it. If are not on Facebook, please let me know when you want to do it and we'll take it from there

Love
Rali