Anatta, Is not self: Right View

[Bluejay]

Ok, I don't know "where" it is, but I have a sense that I can use effort, to direct my awareness "microscope" to look for things in my experience.

Since you already have an analytical approach, you can use it in the inquiry. Look at the sense that you can use effort and break it down into its parts (sensations, sounds, images/thoughts, smells, tastes).

If you can direct your awareness, then try to predict where it goes next. Can you do it?

To help me understand and clarify the "effort" part, could you please describe what/who is doing the "effort" (ie effort to have or change an intention). After I have had some micro-insights, I keep getting drawn back to this unresolved question.

There is no one doing the effort. It is simply a happening like rain falling from a cloud once the water droplets become too heavy. There is no effort in the river flowing downstream. It is simply a potential becoming manifest because of the conditions and circumstances.

So too is Nate a bunch of conditions and potentials that express when things come together. This is why you never find anything when you look. You only find a vague sense or feeling, which is labeled as something concrete.

Feel free to ask follow-up questions and we can explore this more.

[Nate]

Good Afternoon Henri,

Since you already have an analytical approach, you can use it in the inquiry. Look at the sense that you can use effort and break it down into its parts (sensations, sounds, images/thoughts, smells, tastes).

It appears that my sense of Effort is a combination of: (a) an internalized verbal statement, sentence or longer paragraph of thought, & (b) a body sensation, perhaps "impulse" or "intention", that seems to precede it, but is a weak signal that is barely perceptible. It seems to arise based on an (subconscious) "evaluation", which is based on previous thoughts (and patterns/emotions). Since I haven't noticed this "impulse" so clearly or often before, it lead me to believe that my "internalized verbal inquiry/dialogue is/was my "self". I have only started to see this more clearly, so my sense of "self" is mostly generated by my internal verbal dialogue ie "I am thinking such and such...so now I will do such and such..."

So my Effort (and therefore my strongest sense of "self") isn't: sensations, sounds, images, smells, tastes. It seems to be a thought (?). Using the traditional Theravada 5 Aggregates of: Form, Feeling, Perception, Fabrications and Consciousness, it seems my internal verbal dialogue is just the "Fabrications" aggregate? Is this a useful view?

It seems most of the time when "I" use Effort, the internal verbal dialogue creates my strongest sense of Self and sense of control.

Could you please advise how to better consider internal verbal dialogue, and how Effort seems to be linked to it, thus creating a self and sense of control?

There is no one doing the effort. It is simply a happening like rain falling from a cloud once the water droplets become too heavy. There is no effort in the river flowing downstream. It is simply a potential becoming manifest because of the conditions and circumstances.

I went and walked and sat in the forest to contemplate this. I can somewhat (a little) see what your a saying, here is an example: I can switch my awareness to focus on: sounds (they get louder and more complete, then smells (they increase), I can watch thoughts and see that they are mostly automatic. I can agree that you are mostly right, yet my "effort" seems to be able to be outside an unfolding automatic experience eg sometimes I choose to do something better, or choose to not do something I know I should ie proactivity -v- laziness. My resistance or fear is that if I accept that everything is just unfolding, I could lose my motivation/proactivity to make my life choices better.

So the other question is, if I dont actually have Effort/Intention to make positive choices based on evaluations, how am I supposed to improve my life situation? My concern is that without Effort/Intention, my life could degrade.

Any instructions or advice would be appreciated, as I know I am somewhat repeating myself, not fully realising what you are saying, and stuck on this point.

Kind Regards and Many Thanks,
Nate

[Bluejay]

It appears that my sense of Effort is a combination of: (a) an internalized verbal statement, sentence or longer paragraph of thought, & (b) a body sensation, perhaps "impulse" or "intention", that seems to precede it, but is a weak signal that is barely perceptible. It seems to arise based on an (subconscious) "evaluation", which is based on previous thoughts (and patterns/emotions). Since I haven't noticed this "impulse" so clearly or often before, it lead me to believe that my "internalized verbal inquiry/dialogue is/was my "self". I have only started to see this more clearly, so my sense of "self" is mostly generated by my internal verbal dialogue ie "I am thinking such and such...so now I will do such and such..."

Good observations!

So my Effort (and therefore my strongest sense of "self") isn't: sensations, sounds, images, smells, tastes. It seems to be a thought (?). Using the traditional Theravada 5 Aggregates of: Form, Feeling, Perception, Fabrications and Consciousness, it seems my internal verbal dialogue is just the "Fabrications" aggregate? Is this a useful view?

Is it only a thought, or is it in combination with something like a sensation?

I ask because if I have a thought without sensations/sounds/etc then it holds no weight.

It seems most of the time when "I" use Effort, the internal verbal dialogue creates my strongest sense of Self and sense of control.

Could you please advise how to better consider internal verbal dialogue, and how Effort seems to be linked to it, thus creating a self and sense of control?

Perhaps it would be good to keep looking for the doer. There can be dialogue, effort, and even a sense of control, but where is the evidence for that meaning there is control/self?

An exercise that might help with this:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

My resistance or fear is that if I accept that everything is just unfolding, I could lose my motivation/proactivity to make my life choices better.

As an aside, you could examine what better means for you. Look at what your motivation is getting you, and keep asking why until you reach the end. What exactly are you looking for?

So the other question is, if I dont actually have Effort/Intention to make positive choices based on evaluations, how am I supposed to improve my life situation? My concern is that without Effort/Intention, my life could degrade.

The assumption here seems to be that you actually have effort/intention now. But the truth is that you never had it, only the idea/illusion that you did.

Positive choices are built into the system/body. You won't suddenly put your hand on a stove. There will still be positive, neutral, and negative experiences, which will influence movement and effort.

We could examine the fear here. Let's say your life degraded, what is the worst case scenario, and what are the feelings associated with that?

Any instructions or advice would be appreciated, as I know I am somewhat repeating myself, not fully realising what you are saying, and stuck on this point.

No problem at all. If things don't make sense, please keep repeating yourself and I'll try to approach it from different angles.

[Nate]

Good Evening,

It seems I made some progress, at least with higher frequency, although intermittent. I can experience more often what you are saying, and am pleased! It seems it will take more frequent effort to increase the frequency of this "seeing", as it habitually returns to the old way automatically.

Is it only a thought, or is it in combination with something like a sensation?

I ask because if I have a thought without sensations/sounds/etc then it holds no weight.

It is a perspective that "I" am the thought AND sensation. However, I can regularly see that this is not the case, at it appears that my awareness collapsed into thought/sensation, then identifies with it as a "self". I think I can see this is somehow a corruption (or software error) of consciousness into a different and simplified form, which reduces my awareness, creates a desire/aversion of the now of reality, and creates dissatisfaction due to the delusion. I am only really starting to see this, but it is all starting to make more sense.

Perhaps it would be good to keep looking for the doer. There can be dialogue, effort, and even a sense of control, but where is the evidence for that meaning there is control/self?

In the last few days, doing the exercises, meditation and observations in day to day life, I can more often see what you are saying. It's quite fascinating that I couldn't see this at all before, WTAF? It's starting to be more obvious, more frequently, OMG.

I can see that the control/self is significantly diminished, to compared to what I previously believed. The main exception I am aware of is when I use thought to contruct a goal/vision. But I can now see that a thought goal/vision gets transformed into the "unconscious", which then seems to produce automated urges and a perception filter to align towards the goal.

Hand Flipping exercise:

- How is the movement controlled?

I don't really know, seems mostly automatic (eg unconscious) after the instruction is implemented.

- Does a thought control it?

No. However, if I want to go faster/slower, I can intervene using perception and thought.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Not specifically no.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I don't know, it seems to automatically happen, no clear and obvious decisions in awareness. However, there is an observation perception which has a little oversight awareness/control of the movement.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don't know, it was automatic to my right (dominant) hand, probably due to a habitual tendency.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, it's mostly automated.

As an aside, you could examine what better means for you. Look at what your motivation is getting you, and keep asking why until you reach the end. What exactly are you looking for?

1. To be awakened to the true and fundamental nature of my being. To realise the highest level of attainment of my existence.
2. To be happy, joyous, peaceful, tranquil, healthy, and financially sustainable.

The assumption here seems to be that you actually have effort/intention now. But the truth is that you never had it, only the idea/illusion that you did.

Humbly, I still believe that my thoughts can construct goals/visions of my future (however conditioned) and that I can change/accelerate towards a goal (using thoughts), with effort/intention. I can partially see what you a saying, but humbly disagree that I have "no effort/intention". What am I missing, as goals/visions seems to be an essential part of evolving oneself???

We could examine the fear here. Let's say your life degraded, what is the worst case scenario, and what are the feelings associated with that?

I may be badly misinterpreting something here, but I really don't think I have no control/effort whatsoever. So I am interpreting this point as I can accept that I don't have control/effort, as many things are automatically unfolding. However, that is not my perception. So the worst case scenario is I don't use my thoughts/sensations/feeling/perceptions to analyse and control my life situation towards my goals eg I "accept" too much, and don't drive/fix/improve/respond to everything with success criteria. The "feeling" associated with this, is, I could have done way better, which is serious form of regret.

I hope this makes sense, many thanks and regards,
Nate

[Bluejay]

It seems I made some progress, at least with higher frequency, although intermittent. I can experience more often what you are saying, and am pleased!

Great to hear!

It is a perspective that "I" am the thought AND sensation. However, I can regularly see that this is not the case, at it appears that my awareness collapsed into thought/sensation, then identifies with it as a "self". I think I can see this is somehow a corruption (or software error) of consciousness into a different and simplified form, which reduces my awareness, creates a desire/aversion of the now of reality, and creates dissatisfaction due to the delusion. I am only really starting to see this, but it is all starting to make more sense.

So, what is this perspective? Is it a thought? An image?

What is telling you that you are a thought/sensation?

Look for something concrete.

1. To be awakened to the true and fundamental nature of my being. To realise the highest level of attainment of my existence.
2. To be happy, joyous, peaceful, tranquil, healthy, and financially sustainable.

There's a reason it's often said that to awaken, you have to be ready to sacrifice everything.

Awakening is not a ticket to always feeling good, being healthy, or financially sustainable. There will always be pleasant and unpleasant sensations.

However, not being awakened also doesn't guarantee any of these, only the illusion of control.

Humbly, I still believe that my thoughts can construct goals/visions of my future (however conditioned) and that I can change/accelerate towards a goal (using thoughts), with effort/intention. I can partially see what you a saying, but humbly disagree that I have "no effort/intention". What am I missing, as goals/visions seems to be an essential part of evolving oneself???

I was maybe a bit unclear in my previous post. There is effort, intention, and setting goals, but the question is: Where is the controller of those? Or the self that is efforting, intending, and setting goals.

A goal can arise with the feeling of moving in a certain direction, but how is that a self doing something? It is a description of what is happening.

No. However, if I want to go faster/slower, I can intervene using perception and thought.

Where does this intervention come from?

A change in speed happens, but can the urge and thought to change the speed be predicted?

Go one step back and look carefully. Where is the control of any of this?

You say you decide to go faster/slower, but that thought itself arose automatically, no?

Cheers! :)
Henri

[Nate]

Good Evening,

Look for something concrete.

Can you please advise a technique/instruction for doing this?

Many thanks,
Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

Can you please advise a technique/instruction for doing this?

No problem. You said:

It is a perspective that "I" am the thought AND sensation. However, I can regularly see that this is not the case, at it appears that my awareness collapsed into thought/sensation, then identifies with it as a "self". I think I can see this is somehow a corruption (or software error) of consciousness into a different and simplified form, which reduces my awareness, creates a desire/aversion of the now of reality, and creates dissatisfaction due to the delusion. I am only really starting to see this, but it is all starting to make more sense.

You make references to an 'I'. What is it referring to?

Don't go to science, concepts, or what you've learned. Keep it very simple. Look in your own experience.

For example, while reading this, you are probably looking at a white rectangular surface with black scribbles on it, plus some colors. We call the rectangular surface a screen.

Now, which sensory experience is "I" the name for?

[Nate]

Good Morning,

Thank you. Ok, here we go, I think I have an updated answer to this! I have meditated at length on this in the last few days, and can advise the following.

My sense of self is not in:

- 5 senses
- Forms, body, feelings, perceptions
- Consciousness

My sense of self seems to be within the thought structure, in particular, I can be aware of thought streams, that are not my "self", but I am aware of thoughts streams, then evaluate them, and redirect them. This sense of awareness and control of thoughts is my sense of self, by virtue of the sense of aware control.

However, it seems I have realised that this is also false (ie a misinterpretation of whats happening). My thought redirection, based on awareness, evaluation and stopping/redirecting, appears to be just more thoughts! That is, it appears that thought control is my "self", but I think I noticed that it is the thought function itself operating, by itself ie thoughts were evaluating thoughts. The thought function is itself self refining itself, with "better thoughts", and my consciousness is aware of this during mindfulness mediation. That is, my independant thought function is operating as an algorithim, and my "self" is not part of that algorithm. It just appears that "I" am influencing the algorithm, but that's not strictly true, it just feels like it.

Since it seems I realised this yesterday, I have an increased sense of peace throughout the day. It seems something important happened.

Does this make sense?

That is, I can't find the concrete self while watching like a hawk. The more i look, the less "self" is there. I can start to see all the mind/body processes in a flow, without the sense of control and/or self that I previously assumed.

I genuinely think I have realized something here, thank you. Any advice or questions to clarify?

I will keep going with mindfulness mediation on this point, as it seems I got it, but it might slip away again, as it feels like I am only holding on to this new insight with my fingertips. It is a nice feeling thought, a sense of peace and tranquility, seeing everything just flow, its all quite funny really!

Thank you so much!
Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

Hello Nate,

Very good investigating!

However, it seems I have realised that this is also false (ie a misinterpretation of whats happening). My thought redirection, based on awareness, evaluation and stopping/redirecting, appears to be just more thoughts!

Exactly!

I genuinely think I have realized something here, thank you. Any advice or questions to clarify?

To clarify, see below.

It just appears that "I" am influencing the algorithm, but that's not strictly true, it just feels like it.

Look into this feeling or sense that you are influencing the algorithm.

What exactly is influencing it?

Can you find what it is referring to?

I will keep going with mindfulness mediation on this point, as it seems I got it, but it might slip away again, as it feels like I am only holding on to this new insight with my fingertips. It is a nice feeling thought, a sense of peace and tranquility, seeing everything just flow, its all quite funny really!

What kind of meditation do you do on this?

Remember, you only have to look. No need to complicate this.

Are you familiar with the Bahiya Sutta?

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus:
In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen.
In reference to the heard, only the heard.
In reference to the sensed, only the sensed.
In reference to the thought, only the thought. That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen,
only the heard in reference to the heard,
only the sensed in reference to the sensed,
only the thought in reference to the thought,
then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that.

When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there.
When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.
This, just this, is the end of suffering."

Bahiya Sutta, Udana 1.10