RaamS

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

If I ask you to find an edge where "you" end and "everything else" begins would the answer be that one is not found?

Yes yes, that would be the answer. When looking for such an edge or boundary where I end, it is not to be found.

Don't knows are ok.

Thanks!

Is there fear of seeing that there is no self?

Reporting whatever is being observed currently:
No, Jon, there isn't any fear right now. There's a lot of frustration, though, and several thoughts that "feel" important or even "real".

A description of some of these thoughts:
There is some lack of confidence and just memories of being disheartened several times when even looking within and trying to answer, with direct pointing of this nature. Questions like, "What if I look sincerely enough but have nothing to report at all?", "Should I suggest Jon to just give up on me because this has never worked?" "Perhaps he should stop wasting his time trying to point or suggestion questions for me, because I've never had any luck with this?"

The neutral presence is just present throughout, whether these thoughts came up or not, but there is some frustration even with noticing this presence. "What good is the noticing of presence doing?" "At best, I describe it a little or talk about how it's hard to put it into words, and then, just nothing, right? I'll have to get back to the dream-world and engage in something - at least something happens there."

Some observations from past experience with enquiry:
A note about fear of seeing that there is no self, from past experience with enquiry:
Even in the past, such a fear has not lasted more than a moment or so, and has come up very few times. Whenever it did come up, it disappeared before it could even be noticed properly.

At the intellectual level, I figured that there isn't going to be an actual amputation of a person per se, but just a deeper understanding of something that is already here, so technically there isn't supposed to be anything to fear. This was useful during the reading/listening stages and is only at the level of thought. However, at the experiential level, such a fear of me not existing has been too fleeting to even acknowledge. To be honest, I've even felt a little disappointed, because this might have implied that I wasn't enquiring properly. I do see that this is based on some expectations but it's been hard to track where I am and whether I'm going the right way with basically no indicators.

A note about the frustration faced in the past, with enquiry:
What's been common is some frustration and a feeling of helplessness in terms of looking for the self. I have ended up wondering whether it is even possible at all to see anything clearer than I do, right now. Before and after every life experience - a new sensation, a new achievement, a new learning, the fundamental experience of being seems to have been the same. I started using the term "mundaneness" to refer to how "being me" felt - even this is perhaps a mental interpretation of what it feels and not purely from direct experience, but without even this experience, I find it hard to even know anything. The frustration comes from a doubt as to whether it is possible at all to ever see or feel anything other than this "mundaneness" at the near-subjective level of being me.

I didn't want to bother you with the content of these thoughts, but without that there would just be a "yes"as an answer to your first question, and a "no" to your second. Felt I might as well expose a little more of what's there - perhaps some of it might help.

Thank you so much for your patience, Jon.

Best regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. I didn't want to bother you with the content of these thoughts, but without that there would just be a "yes"as an answer to your first question, and a "no" to your second. Felt I might as well expose a little more of what's there - perhaps some of it might help.

You're doing a lot of self-measurement against some kind of criteria or expectation and imagining that you must be the doer of whatever is supposed to change or happen.

Frustration is understandable. I understand how hopelessness can be happening. However , what is wrong with what is right now ? What is it that is not happening that should be?

All best

Jon

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

You're doing a lot of self-measurement against some kind of criteria or expectation and imagining that you must be the doer of whatever is supposed to change or happen.

Oh, yeah. I guess when it comes to enquiry in particular, there's a lot of doership, because the result matters so much. With "other things", results seem to matter much lesser, and it's easier to be objective and try to see what's going on or to relax. This bifurcation between "realization-related" things and "other things" is to just be seen as a mental exercise and not be taken that seriously? Or would you suggest something else?

Frustration is understandable. I understand how hopelessness can be happening

Right, Jon.

However , what is wrong with what is right now ? What is it that is not happening that should be?

It feels hard to not "check" if anything close to awakening has happened, or to try to do what can be done to "make it happen", Jon. The only association I've had it with it so far has been mental - through listening or reading of it. There's a fear that if I do not do anything - or rather, enough for it, I might slip into useless details of life too much. So there is this mental grasping and an anxious fear to "do justice" to it.

There's definitely holding on, but it doesn't feel so easy to let go. Even with attempts to not hold so much onto awakening, it feels like I'm trying to pretend like I've let go, and then hoping that somehow it happens, thereby there's just more holding on.

What would you recommend, Jon?

Thanks!
Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. There's definitely holding on, but it doesn't feel so easy to let go. Even with attempts to not hold so much onto awakening, it feels like I'm trying to pretend like I've let go, and then hoping that somehow it happens, thereby there's just more holding on.

What would you recommend, Jon?

Silence.

Find some opportunity to notice any silence. Silence between the end of one thought and the start of another. Notice any gap, however short it may appear, between thoughts.

Let me know how it goes?

Jon

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

However , what is wrong with what is right now ? What is it that is not happening that should be?

I noticed that in the long rant, I went on, I did not clearly answer the questions you had asked in your earlier post. I suppose it's pretty obvious now, but just to state it explicitly, the fact that awakening has not taken place yet is the part that, to not mince words, "I am unhappy with", and would like to change. Awakening hasn't happened and no self has not been realized is the thing that "should" have happened.

I didn't want to state this without an "I" because it feels like that's something that hasn't happened "to me" yet. It feels personal, it feels like something that I desperately want and am not really progressing towards.

If my tone felt aggressive, it is merely to stress how seriously this is taken, Jon, and how helpless it feels. The intention was not to sound rude, in case it did.

Find some opportunity to notice any silence. Silence between the end of one thought and the start of another. Notice any gap, however short it may appear, between thoughts.

I'll take some time to do this and will reply tomorrow, please, Jon.

Thanks!
Regards,
Raam

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

This was a particularly hectic day to try and give attention to silence, but it was possible to catch a little time for it in intermittent parts of the day.

Find some opportunity to notice any silence. Silence between the end of one thought and the start of another. Notice any gap, however short it may appear, between thoughts.

Let me know how it goes?

There's not much to say about the silence itself. It feels just like familiar ordinariness.

Doubt-thoughts and distraction-thoughts keep arising now and then, like "Is this a moment of no thought?", "Is the recognition of this object a thought?", "Is there really an 'inside' here where I must look or is that something that I've thought up?", "Does it feel like presence itself is present 'below', that I need to look down to see where the feeling of I am is felt?".

And then there are moments when there's no thought. There is just things happening around and presence being here at such moments. Attention is relaxed and open to whatever is going on, and perhaps more focussed on one or more of the things that is/are going on.

"It's fine" feels like the best thing to say about it.

Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

.There's not much to say about the silence itself. It feels just like familiar ordinariness.

And yet THIS MOMENT is entirely fresh, whether it is perceived as silent, or busy . RIGHT NOW has never happened before as it happens immediately.

Were you uncomfortable or even annoyed with the silence because it was not yielding something?

.Doubt-thoughts and distraction-thoughts keep arising now and then, like "Is this a moment of no thought?", "Is the recognition of this object a thought?", "Is there really an 'inside' here where I must look or is that something that I've thought up?", "Does it feel like presence itself is present 'below', that I need to look down to see where the feeling of I am is felt?".

Was there discomfort with the silence?

It can take a few goes with this. Literally no attempt to practise anything, but to notice moments or periods of silence.

Since so much mental activity and conceptualisation appears it may help to close your eyes and notice silence as if from the heart or chest area, or even from the feet area.

Although we make no effort to suppress or stamp out thoughts, these calm down by themselves . It is not necessary to believe any of the content of thoughts or to lend any weight to what they "say".

. And then there are moments when there's no thought. There is just things happening around and presence being here at such moments. Attention is relaxed and open to whatever is going on, and perhaps more focussed on one or more of the things that is/are going on.

"It's fine" feels like the best thing to say about it.

Is that an expression of disappointment or frustration?

Who, or what, is making this judgement ?

Jon

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

And yet THIS MOMENT is entirely fresh, whether it is perceived as silent, or busy . RIGHT NOW has never happened before as it happens immediately.

Oh yes!

Were you uncomfortable or even annoyed with the silence because it was not yielding something?

Not every time, but definitely sometimes. It's one of the reasons why I could never make meditation a regular habit - it started becoming something to dread - that nothing would happen this time also, and life could go on this way until it ended.

When spending time with silence these few times, such an annoyance was certainly there sometimes, but when just paying attention to silence in the midst of work or other commitments, it was just ordinary relaxation.

Was there discomfort with the silence?

It was not uncomfortable Jon. But there's often a feeling if perhaps enquiry or something might be more fruitful than just sitting in silence. Still, beliefs and doership, but they've particularly arisen from the feeling that I'm probably not doing the entirety of what all I could be doing, for awakening. With you being here to guide, I think it'll be easier to not hold onto that belief. I'll try to not believe or hold onto such notions for a while, and to relax and notice silence.

Since so much mental activity and conceptualisation appears it may help to close your eyes and notice silence as if from the heart or chest area, or even from the feet area.

Sure, Jon. Will do that.

Although we make no effort to suppress or stamp out thoughts, these calm down by themselves . It is not necessary to believe any of the content of thoughts or to lend any weight to what they "say".

Right, Jon. "Slowing down of thought" has not particularly been an experience but I'll just spend time with silence, see what happens and report back.

Is that an expression of disappointment or frustration?

I'm not sure if this was specifically an expression of it. It felt like the best way to describe what the silence feels like.

However, there is definitely some disappointment - not because I'd like realization to feel a particular way, but because it hasn't happened, and I have no idea when or whether it will. Such a feeling is not a constant occurrence, but certainly a regular one.

Who, or what, is making this judgement ?

It is a thought that has come up, but based on fears that make it look like there's definitely a "me" that is capable of suffering, and is afraid of it. There are even more elaborate descriptions of how much effort has gone in, thoughts about the fact that "I" cannot somehow cause something to happen, but how I can still be the victim of suffering. It can all be seen as thought, but somewhere there is a desire to use the "seeing it all as thought" as a tool or technique to get somewhere. So, at that level, there still feels like there's an I - an I that has figured out some things about life, is frustrated about its spiritual progress and is pleading for any help. For now, it still feels like this I is making the judgement, Jon, and it's taking this issue seriously.

It can take a few goes with this. Literally no attempt to practise anything, but to notice moments or periods of silence.

Sure Jon, will do this now and then, taking thoughts a little less seriously.

Thanks and regards,
Raam

[indianguy]

Hi Jon,

Was there discomfort with the silence?

Just felt like clarifying that not every time I sit with silence is it frustrating or annoying. There are times when it is nice and relaxing, and nothing particular is expected too.

At the times when there is expectation or something, it is more impatience than discomfort. Annoyance is definitely there too.

I suppose I did say that but just wanted to reiterate that it's not always frustrating or anything particularly because I spent so much time describing the frustration.

Thanks,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Dear.Raam

Please look directly at who or what is experiencing frustration.

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

I've been trying to give some time to do this, and have sat down to do so at least a couple of times, wanting to give a very sincere look before I answer, but for now, I hardly have anything to say about it.

I find myself starting at a point somewhere "within", but can't say much else for now.

As of now, I don't know what is frustrated, or what I am.

I'll please take another day to respond.

Raam

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

When I sit down specifically to look at who or what is experiencing the frustration, the frustration itself isn't as intense.

So I just went back to who or what is it that wants to awaken.

All I'm able to find is some sense of subjectivity that can't be "seen" as an object, that seems related to some sensations, particularly on the face. Chasing it as an object made it feel very elusive, so, it felt better to just see what I already must be. All I can see for now is a simple "I'm here".

There is some disturbance in the form of a tingling sensation at the neck-pit area which has bothered me during meditation for a long time, but that's about it, Jon.

I'm not able to know much else.

Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

Yes of course, take whatever time you need for this.

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

Please look directly at who or what is experiencing frustration.

I don't feel any closer to seeing clearly as to who or what is experiencing the frustration.

There are thoughts in the form of pointless images and comments about the situation, and the inner voice going "yeah, that's just a thought, look at what is really here", but the exercise merely feels exhausting and even more frustrating.

There is also some pressure that I'm putting myself under, in wanting to look properly enough so that my response post to you has something of value - especially after having made you wait so long, but there really isn't anything significant to say, just frustration and the exasperation after yet another futile iteration of the exercise.

Upon trying to look at who or what is experiencing this frustration, there is intimate presence for sure, but although it is there, I'm not sure if this is me, or if there is probably some distance from what might be me and this intimate presence.

What might be me could probably be a container that holds even this intimate presence, but it feels out of reach no matter how hard I look. I'm not sure if it is boundless or anything - I'm really not even sure what "me" is like.

That's probably all that I'm able to say, Jon.

Kind regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

I understand that there really is frustration experienced.

But is there an experiencer of this?

Look for an experiencer of frustration.

In practice, so to speak, there is frustration, for sure. But how about one that experienced the experience? Where is that one?

Love

Jon