Clearing doubts and Resistance and directing seeing

[Villosa]

Thanks for this. I had a very long day today and late evening out. Very tired. I will give the exercise some time and reply tomorrow

[Elad]

Thanks for this. I had a very long day today and late evening out. Very tired. I will give the exercise some time and reply tomorrow

🙏

[Villosa]

When I imagine the me as being transparent there is a sense of spaciousness. When I imagine it not to be there it seems to expand outwards filling the whole head and beyond, in a light airy way. Filling my awareness. There is a sense of stillness. It is quite restful. At one point I found myself smiling a bit, not about anything.

[Elad]

When I imagine the me as being transparent there is a sense of spaciousness. When I imagine it not to be there it seems to expand outwards filling the whole head and beyond, in a light airy way. Filling my awareness. There is a sense of stillness. It is quite restful. At one point I found myself smiling a bit, not about anything.

Nice. Let’s look a little at thoughts. In direct experience:

1) What is a thought?

2) Where do thoughts come from and where do they go?

3) Can thoughts be controlled and predicted?

And let’s look at sensation. Whatever sensation you identify as you in the moment -

4) Does it directly say that it is you? Or is that a thought that is about it?

[Villosa]

A thought is a pointer to something that assists me in navigating the world to survive.

Thought just appear and disappear. They appear from no discernable place and disappear into the same non place.

Thought A promotes thought B , thought be is a comment on Thought A it has an influence and some control over thought A When thought A appears again it may have changed some what or modified itself due to Thought B's influence. In this way B controls A, to an extent. Thought B can say 'don't think that' or don't say that. Sometimes thought A can obey thought B sometimes not. This process itself has no controller. Though a sense of controller can arise very close to the thought.
A decision can be made to think about something but that decision and the thoughts are not decided or predicted.

The sensation that I identify as me is all over my body, a sense of the body. Also specific sensations in various body parts gut etc. There is a felt sense that the body is me. This appears to be prior to any thought about it. However on inspection there is a subtle thought that recognizes the sensation of the body as me.

[Elad]

"A thought is a pointer to something that assists me in navigating the world to survive."

Agre you sure? Direct experience? Is tjat Always true?

"Thought just appear and disappear. They appear from no discernable place and disappear into the same non place."

Right.

"Thought A promotes thought B , thought be is a comment on Thought A it has an influence and some control over thought A When thought A appears again it may have changed some what or modified itself due to Thought B's influence. In this way B controls A, to an extent. Thought B can say 'don't think that' or don't say that. Sometimes thought A can obey thought B sometimes not. This process itself has no controller. Though a sense of controller can arise very close to the thought.
A decision can be made to think about something but that decision and the thoughts are not decided or predicted."

So seeming correlations and causations can be found. And yet when you look at direct experience here now, can you really control what thought will come, how long it will stay, when it will go? You are not gonna see by thinking about it, no matter how sophisticated your thinking is. Observe.

"The sensation that I identify as me is all over my body, a sense of the body. Also specific sensations in various body parts gut etc. There is a felt sense that the body is me. This appears to be prior to any thought about it. However on inspection there is a subtle thought that recognizes the sensation of the body as me."

Look again. Do the sensation(s) have anything about them in direct experience that says "I" or "mine’?

[Elad]

"However on inspection there is a subtle thought that recognizes the sensation of the body as me."

Look again. Can a thought recognize anything? Or is that just another thought, a belief.

[Villosa]

A thought seems to point to something outside of me. In direct experience a thought is a movement I can't what it is other than what it refers to.

This is very sticky. There is nothing about the sensations that state they are me or mine but the assumption that they are me or mine is so strong i cant seem to see it any other way. It is habitual and seems logical. This felt sense in the body seems to tell me that I am. That I am here in the world. The thoughts explain what the world is. I know this is not a good answer. The habituation is very strong. When I try to focus on the question the mind keeps wandering off and distracting my attention.

I will spend more time on this

[Elad]

"A thought seems to point to something outside of me. In direct experience a thought is a movement I can't what it is other than what it refers to."

What does "seems to" mean. In order to see through habit ways you have to be keep looking for what is clearly there. Seems to won't do. All habitual beliefs seem to be true. Is there anything in thought, seen in the here and now, that says it points to something else?

Is there anything about the label I that says it points to something else, except through other thought?

"There is nothing about the sensations that state they are me or mine".

Exactly. You need to stay with this with full determination until it sinks in that sensation is not you, except in thought.


"but the assumption that they are me or mine is so strong i cant seem to see it any other way. It is habitual and seems logical. This felt sense in the body seems to tell me that I am. That I am here in the world. The thoughts explain what the world is."

Normal thinking useful for communication conventionally speaking. Not direct looking. This is not about logical thinking which will never provide awakening. Only direct seeing will.

"The habituation is very strong. When I try to focus on the question the mind keeps wandering off and distracting my attention."

Right. Keep at it, you never know when the lighting strikes.

[Villosa]

Elad, I'm sorry I'm really struggling with this. I don't seem to be making any progress. I have spent some hours yesterday and today investigating this. Occasionally I fell like I am fully engaged in the process. Much of the time I am struggling ot focus on the questions and I'm not sure that I have the resource to apply full determination.


What does "seems to" mean. In order to see through habit ways you have to be keep looking for what is clearly there. Seems to won't do. All habitual beliefs seem to be true. Is there anything in thought, seen in the here and now, that says it points to something else?

A thought is a concept. in direct experience it is not a thing.

Is there anything about the label I that says it points to something else, except through other thought?

No the I is dependent on other thoughts. It relates to a cascade of thoughts and feelings.

Exactly. You need to stay with this with full determination until it sinks in that sensation is not you, except in thought.

I've spent many hours on this and its difficult to hold in attention. Its not 'sunk in' yet.

[Elad]

Elad, I'm sorry I'm really struggling with this. I don't seem to be making any progress. I have spent some hours yesterday and today investigating this. Occasionally I fell like I am fully engaged in the process. Much of the time I am struggling ot focus on the questions and I'm not sure that I have the resource to apply full determination.


What does "seems to" mean. In order to see through habit ways you have to be keep looking for what is clearly there. Seems to won't do. All habitual beliefs seem to be true. Is there anything in thought, seen in the here and now, that says it points to something else?

A thought is a concept. in direct experience it is not a thing.

Is there anything about the label I that says it points to something else, except through other thought?

No the I is dependent on other thoughts. It relates to a cascade of thoughts and feelings.

Exactly. You need to stay with this with full determination until it sinks in that sensation is not you, except in thought.

I've spent many hours on this and its difficult to hold in attention. Its not 'sunk in' yet.

Hi Ben - good, there is some good looking going on. Let's address the unclear part:

These evaluations of "being stuck", can you find them in direct experience? Or is it just sensations and interpretations ("not good enough" "stuck" etc) with no direct connection to reality?

This "Ben that is not getting it and not capable" can you find him as a reality in direct experience here-now? Or is it just a story believed in? How does it effect you to believe this story is reality? Try on the seeing that this is just a story, how does life flow then?

We don't need a permanent or unusual focus or change in how you function. All that is helpful to focus on is one moment at the time of seeing instead of thinking.

[Elad]

https://youtu.be/syWVpoBQ6f0?si=e21DfJ0kxc52I0ie

Thought this might be helpful for you.

[Villosa]

Thanks for the video, Funny but I actually watched it yesterday. I watched it twice today. Very useful. I got some glimpses of the hearing and then seeing the sense of self as an add on. Also sensations filling experience rather than being observed from a distance.
Yesterday I had a depressive anxiety thing going on like i had not had for many years. It was a bit intense and I felt fused with it. Didn't manage to see it as just a story. In the night I was staying with the feelings and in the morning it had gone.
In my morning session. I was able to see the self as a visual thought object. I have also found myself in a kind of neutrality, blankness. Is it a good idea to stay with that space ?

[Elad]

Thanks for the video, Funny but I actually watched it yesterday. I watched it twice today. Very useful. I got some glimpses of the hearing and then seeing the sense of self as an add on. Also sensations filling experience rather than being observed from a distance.
Yesterday I had a depressive anxiety thing going on like i had not had for many years. It was a bit intense and I felt fused with it. Didn't manage to see it as just a story. In the night I was staying with the feelings and in the morning it had gone.
In my morning session. I was able to see the self as a visual thought object. I have also found myself in a kind of neutrality, blankness. Is it a good idea to stay with that space ?

Great Ben, good work. Please investigate, are you capable of making what is directly seen here now more or less as it is by effort? Can your sense of knowing or not knowing, understanding or not, or any sensation or thought, make what is directly seen be more or less what is directly seen?

[Villosa]

I am not able to make what is directly seen here more or less as it is by effort. There is a part of my mind that thinks I should be able to and some experience of frustration and self-criticism. It is difficult to know how to apply determination. I have attention to place but even that seems to have a life of its own.


Any sense of knowing or not knowing, understanding or not, or any sensation or thought, does not make what is directly seen more or less what is directly seen. So is there any type of effort or direction that I can make that will increase my ability to be with direct seeing rather than thinking ?I've been meditating and listening to Terrance Stephens today and yesterday. I am having some glimpse of the self as a object but I'm not sure it makes any difference, yet.