Harmonie

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubsfrosch,

What’s about thoughts? They also get experienced. So every ist just experienced.

Yes, thoughts are also experienced. And we can't differentiate awareness from the experience.

Now lets look at the perception of time:

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

Is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Some questions can be aggregated in one answer.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

I‘m so sorry. I was in holiydays an losed my phone. So I couldn‘t answer.
Now I‘m at home again.

Is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time? Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next? Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

In the experience only one moment exists, the now. The other moments only exist in thoughts. The past is created by thoughts. It is not possible to experience the past. There are only memories consisting of thoughts. Thoughts gives this memories an order and create a timeline. If the memories aren’t clear, like in the early life there exist no “timeline”. It is not possible to bring the memories in a order. They exist parallel to each other. Also the future is created by thoughts. The thoughts often creates different versions of the future. This thoughts exists parallel to each other, but in the experience only “one version” could exist.
There isn’t a “moment” giving way to the next. It is more like there is an experience giving way to the next. Or one thought giving way to the next. But there isn’t a real “feeling” or “experience” of time. The thoughts create this. Without any “help” from outside (clocks, sun, light and so on) it isn’t able to say “which time” it is. In the own experience the time has different speeds. If something is very boring the times seems to run very slowly. But if something ist very beautiful the times seems to run very fast.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

In the present moment “one experience” exist. So it is like the present moment exist so long, as the experience exist and is not substituted by another experience. Sometimes the experiences only exists for a moment, like a sound. But really often the experience is still there, but the focus moves to another experience. If there are a lot of things changing (like in a city), also the attention changes a lot. Then it feels like the time is gone very fast. While sitting in the nature it is easier to pay attention to less things. Then it feels like the time is gone more slowly.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There is no beginning or ending of the moment. There is one experience. It is like the experience or one thought is coming from the “nowhere” and going into the “nowhere”. The “now” doesn’t become the past. There are only thoughts, which says “this happened in the past”. The thoughts creates a story. Bring all the thoughts about experiences in a order, explain things, compare things an so one. But there is never a “experience” of the past. Experience is only able in the “now”. So there is no experience of time there are only thoughts about the time.
Also if you pass out for a moment or sleep for a while, there is no “experience” of this. There is also no feeling how long you passed out or slept. There is no experience of a “hole” in the timeline. There are only other people with a “other Story”. Or there are thoughts, which says “that doesn’t make sense”, between this two “moments” must be a lot of other moments. So the thoughts construct a timeline and “repair” and “explain” all the holes.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

If the memories aren’t clear, like in the early life, there exist no “timeline”. It is not possible to bring the memories in a order. They exist parallel to each other.

Very good noting :-)

Just let me note that we can intellectually understand the illusion of space and time, but when these perception filters dissolve we get to experience space and time in a completly different way from before the 'shift'. It requires daily practice to 'deconstruct' the filters of perception.

Let's look at the 'Me' in the body.
Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the sensations.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Laubfrosch" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Laubfrosch".

Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "Laubfrosch" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensation(s) did you feel in your body that identified "Laubfrosch” (If any).
Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Were you able to find and feel "Laubfrosch" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?

No, I was not able to feel Laubfrosch. As I read the exercise, the thoughts said: Oh, that’s interesting. I’m exited what you will find”. And I observed the thoughts “searching me”. They were absolutely not “clear” which part they should point. After a moment (it felt long) I observed me laying my hand on the breast. But it was more the feeling of despair. While I putting my hand there the thoughts said “that feels wrong” and it also feels wrong. But there was no “right” part. Everything feels wrong.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

Nothing. The thoughts tried to explain why the breast could be right, they said: “You feel your breathing.” But it felt wrong.

What sensation(s) did you feel in your body that identified "Laubfrosch” (If any).

There weren’t any sensations of Laubfrosch. Only thoughts of Laubfrosch. I was only able to identify Laubfrosch as a bundle of thoughts.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Have that bundle of thoughts that say 'I'm Laubfrosch' dissolved?

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the heart.
What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the heart.
Before the apple disappears….
…imagine a canary centred in the heart, tweeting away.
Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….
…imagine a 'me' centred in the heart.
Stay with it…
…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the heart anymore.
Give it a go, see what happens.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Have that bundle of thoughts that say 'I'm Laubfrosch' dissolved?

Not completely. All the experiences showed, that there is no „me“. And there is the feeling of „this is a illusion“. But there is also the feeling of „wow this illusion feels so real“. Maybe it is compareable with a optical illusion. The knowing about the illusion and the experience of the illusion can‘t destroy the illusion completely. But they show a way to „see the truth“. A way to identify the illusion as illusion. But the illusion itself is still there.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

The illusion gets more concrete. More like a figure in a fairy tale. A familiar one. And there are two voices. One which says: „This figure is good“. And another one which says: It is dangerous.
ˋ
Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

The falling of the self-illusion may have started. Sometimes happens suddenly other times is gradual. Take a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

But let's continue the inquiry.

Like cookies? If not, any food will do.
I can give you an imaginary cookie - here you go!
Imagine that you take a cookie and eat it – really feel it happening - the sensations, texture, taste, sound.

If you have some cookies, then eat one and compare: what is the difference between an imagined cookie and the real one that is experienced? See if you can dive in the sensations of taste, smell.
Take your time to investigate how a real cookie smells and tastes, feels in the fingers and so on. Focus on sensations and perceiving, without naming it.

Then for a couple of minutes describe the taste and smell.
What does description have to do with actual experience?
Is sense of self referring to imaginary self or something that is experienced?
Is there a self/I in the experience?
What is found?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

What does description have to do with actual experience?

Nothing. Description is thoughts, without any real experience. Actual experience is actual experience und completely different.

Is sense of self referring to imaginary self or something that is experienced?

The sense of self referring is to imaginary self. There is no experience of self referring.

Is there a self/I in the experience?
What is found?

No there is no self in the experience. The self only exists in thoughts, in the imagination.
Nothing is found. There is only experience.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Very good.
Now go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Sorry my days were so ful, that I didn‘t found enough Quiet for the exercise. Also I have now a smartphone. So I don‘t need the PC to answer. Really sorry about this.

But I continued with other exercises like „being present“, „only seeing“. I do this often, when I‘m stressed. This gives me directly a kind of calmness and deepness.

So now the exercise:

If yes, where is the boundary?

There was a kind of boundary, but it divides „everything“ from „me“. I had the feeling, that everything happens without „me“ also my body, and the things my body does. „I“ felt like a observer from „my body“. Separated from them.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

If I think about this experience. Maybe the „observer“ could be the inside of life. It is „doing“ oder „feeling“ nothing. It is pure energy. And maybe the outside life is all the „feelings“, „thinkings“, „sensations“.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Yes, this „observer me“. It is like „I“ would look from outside of me (my body) and the feelings, the thoughts, the sensations.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Yes, like I described.

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

No, it is not part of it. It is like something „higher“. It felt like it is viewing the world out of the perspective of „me“, „my body“ or „my life“.

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Everything in the „outside“ life is happening, moving, changing. The „inside“ life feels very „old“, very stable, deep, quiet, safe.

Warmly
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

That's alright!

„I“ felt like a observer from „my body“. Separated from them.

Can you look for that 'observer' within your body as if with a child's curiosity?
Is it behind the eyes? Is it in the heart? Where is it?
You really have to look for it, even if you know the answer, in order for the brain to realise the Truth.

Maybe the „observer“ could be the inside of life. It is „doing“ or „feeling“ nothing. It is pure energy. And maybe the outside life is all the „feelings“, „thinkings“, „sensations“.

Your description seems more a distinction between permanent vs impermanent, stillness vs movement, being vs doing. But is there an inside and outside? Where are the boundaries of these qualities? Are they really separate?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? R: Yes, this „observer me“.

Again, it's very important to locate this 'observer'. Spend some time everyday looking for it!

Is witnessing part of the one movement too? R: No, it is not part of it. It is like something „higher“. It felt like it is viewing the world out of the perspective of „me“, „my body“ or „my life“.

How can you say it's something 'higher' if you describe it as a "Me, Mine, I" perspective?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Another try to explain the feeling while doing the last exercise:
I’m not sure, if I described it „good“. Because a description always must be “wrong”. This observer doesn‘t felt as a person or as a part of a person. It felt more like it is not part of the „circle of life“ with, birth, movement, death. It felt like a „stable thing“ inside of this zirkle. It is hard to describe. I will try it with a Metapher. If live is the changing of lines and figures on a paper, than it is a point of it. It doesn’t changes itself, it is always a point. But everything out of itself is changing. And with this exercise the observer was like the point. Stable, out of motion in a changing world. So the observer wasn’t a person. It was more a point of view. A different way to look at everything. But of course the point is also “part of everything”. There isn’t a border, there is only one big “thing”. Everything is “one”. There are only different views. It was more like the “observer” is out of everything, while being everything. Like in the Metapher. And with creating “one different thing”, there must be an other thing, the rest. So it is always “wrong”, when something is separated from the rest. Every category is created by the mind and a try to explain life. But if you begin talking it must be wrong. There is no option to “explain it” with words.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

I thought I answered the questions with my last post. I’m not sure. Should I answer again?

Warmly,
Laubfrosch

[atmajnani]

Hi Laubfrosch,

Sorry for the delay. This month, my daily routines changed and I'm working full-time, sometimes leaving me tired in the evening to answer.

I get your idea in the previous couple of answers, but the wording you used was pointing to separation: 'everything' vs 'me'; 'inside' vs 'outside'. In the last reply you eventually pointed out nicely with a metaphor that there is no separation:

But of course the point is also “part of everything”. There isn’t a border, there is only one big “thing”. Everything is “one”. There are only different views. It was more like the “observer” is out of everything, while being everything.

Let's call the 'point' or 'observer' pure consciousness out of which creation arises.

I don't have more exercises from LU and I sense that you now have a quite different perspective of 'Me, Myself, and I' and thoughts in general from when we started this dialogue.

Would you like to answer the final formal questions of LU?
You can have support after the 'Gate' by joining a weekly zoom meeting with guides or posting a new thread in the Unleashed forum for deeper looking.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Atmajnani,

Sorry for the delay. This month, my daily routines changed and I'm working full-time, sometimes leaving me tired in the evening to answer.

No problem! I was only unsure. Thank you so much for your time, your help and your patience. It gave “me” so much! It is like a gift. It already changed a lot in “my” life. I’m much more relaxed, I’m able to perceive more. I’m not talking all the time, I listen more. I’m not doing all the time, I view more. I’m not annoying all the time, I accept more.

Ok, then “I” hope I’m prepared for the last questions.
Sometimes it felt absurd to write “I”, “me” and so on.

Warmly,
Laubfrosch