Looking for a guide

[Bluejay]

It's like I thought I was looking in DE but infact was thinking hard on what was going on.

Good catch!

That's good to hear, I was trying to come up with some sort of answer to it all yesterday thinking I was onto something, really it was thought ontop of thought... I can put that to bed now.

Yes, exactly.

There's an expectation or belief that at some point I'll see/realise "oneness" which will be this huge experience and life will look different and change for the better. As writing that it's good to see it on the page as it's clear to see it's just exactly that.. an expectation / a thought.

Yes, these kind of expectations are common.

Seeing through the illusion of self is just seeing that there's no doer, watcher, controller, hearer, and so on. For some the shift can be a bang, while for others it's just standing in the kitchen one day and going "Oh, there's just this."

Oneness is an experience that comes and goes, if it happens. The common denominator among people who have had that experience is that they often begin chasing for the next experience of oneness.

However it does seem that appearances can be more intimate with the letting go of Jose and I imagine blissful feeling can come with the relaxation and "letting go" that occurs with staying in DE.

The illusionary self is an overlay/filter, so once it's not there anymore, everything becomes more intimate.

There can be a honeymoon period after seeing that there is no inherent self, but that will pass as well. Remember, you are not letting go of Jose, because he doesn't inherently exist. Jose is a label, a thought.

If you hold a pen in your hand, how do you let go? You relax. How do you let go of Jose? You relax, and 'let' the thoughts pass by. You're not controlling this, but language is difficult here. This is a description of the process, not a prescription of what to do.

It may be useful to look at these expectations of oneness and bliss.

What do you fear will happen if you never experience oneness or bliss?

The problem was that there was a thought saying there is a problem.. and that created a loop. I feel like i'm onto something here, it's quite funny. When I read my original statement it could be read: “thought had a thought about thought”. It was just a thought.

When I look now theres still this self image thought. Which I think is just a thought and there's no problem with it appearing.

Maybe no thought is ever a problem ever, it’s just the next thought says either that’s good or that’s bad, then the body reacts then another thought...?

Yup. This is a classic trick; a thought referring back to another thought in order to pretend that it's real.

And remember the lemon experiment. You imagine biting into it and you feel it.

When there's a contraction in the body, it's a reminder to look at what's going on. It's often a thought whispering lies to you.

Sorry for the slew of comments. Something clicked when I re-read my original statement and it made me laugh when I realised what was going on, I still have a small voice saying “that’s not it” “you’re just regurgitating things you’ve read” or a sense of doubt or im not clear. But something definitely clicked so to speak

Slew away :)

If you have flip-flopping and doubt about seeing/not seeing, that can often mask an underlying emotion or fear, and the doubt is a way of avoiding that.

Try this question: Is the small voice protecting something?

If this is it, what would that mean?

And finally, look back to when we started our conversation, have things shifted? If so, how?

[okjose]

Thank you, everything you've said there is extremely helpful.

What do you fear will happen if you never experience oneness or bliss?

When I first read this my reaction was a sense of relief, like it took the pressure off and it felt good to let go of the expectation. Then thoughts of well whats the point or goal in life and a bit of sadness and frustration, but that's just thought leading down a rabbit hole. That can be done with lots of things. Really when thought deeply or even believed as best I can I see there's more to life than those. Which I guess are ultimately concepts.

And remember the lemon experiment. You imagine biting into it and you feel it.

Yes that great one to see how the body reacts to thought.

When there's a contraction in the body, it's a reminder to look at what's going on. It's often a thought whispering lies to you.

Thanks yes that's good to hear it put that way. I've noticed uncomfortable feelings in the body can be traced to a thought or belief, I traced a feeling of social anxiety to a thought saying "people think you're weird or ugly or they don't want you here". I'm only new to this way of looking into beliefs but it's quite radical.

Slew away :)

Thanks, that puts me at ease.

If you have flip-flopping and doubt about seeing/not seeing, that can often mask an underlying emotion or fear, and the doubt is a way of avoiding that.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. It's like an avoidance. I literally just had fear show up looking into this. It appears to be fear of loosing control or of going mad or crazy. That just came up quite strongly and I stayed with the feeling just looking into it and it faded, now theres a nice feeling, a warm glow and I feel less worried about it.

Try this question: Is the small voice protecting something?

I think maybe it's trying to protect me from feeling fear. To have a sense of stability.

If this is it, what would that mean?

I'm a bit stumped as to what to say to that. Is it? haha. This question highlights the fact that I'm trying to get something or feel like I'm missing something but really i'm not there's plenty here to enjoy and I guess in a way this is it. But I also feel determined to be sure there is no inherent self. It’s feels like going round in circles but the circle is getting smaller and smaller. I’ve been mulling that question over for a bit. It’s a great question and brings me to just looking at whats here.

And finally, look back to when we started our conversation, have things shifted? If so, how?

They certainly have. I generally noticed it in my behaviour, I feel more free and able to just do things. I feel more open with people and generally less self conscious. More present / things do feel more intimate (less of a barrier). There are more times of a quiet joy and like a warm glow inside.

I just started going through our conversations from the beginning and I asked myself “Am I thought?” It felt like a new question and then I realised that I might believe that I’m thought or the thinking. That I produce the voice in my head. The sense of a controller and a separate entity so on is strongly felt as that (the thinking or thinker). I can’t find a gap between the sense of a me and thinking. I think the root of it for me (or the root of me) is that I believe that I am actually this that’s writing and thinking. It sounds silly and very confusing written down and sorry I’m not articulating very well, I’m hoping you might know a good way to look at this. It seems like a step backwards but I feel like I might be getting to the root of a belief, that I believe I am an autonomous thinker. There was a lot of fearful energy when that question initially came up. A lot less now after writing this and it might change by morning but thought I should say it.

[Bluejay]

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. It's like an avoidance. I literally just had fear show up looking into this. It appears to be fear of loosing control or of going mad or crazy. That just came up quite strongly and I stayed with the feeling just looking into it and it faded, now theres a nice feeling, a warm glow and I feel less worried about it.

These fears are very common. It's almost like a defense mechanism of the self.

But remember, there was no self in the first place, so only the illusion of control is 'lost'.

I think maybe it's trying to protect me from feeling fear. To have a sense of stability.

You can try the deep looking process on this (created by Ilona). Go through these questions:

- What is being protected?
- Does it still need to be protected?
- If no longer needed, does it want to leave?
- If yes, feel it out
- If no, ask what it wants to tell you

Here's Ilona's video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

I'm a bit stumped as to what to say to that. Is it? haha. This question highlights the fact that I'm trying to get something or feel like I'm missing something but really i'm not there's plenty here to enjoy and I guess in a way this is it. But I also feel determined to be sure there is no inherent self. It’s feels like going round in circles but the circle is getting smaller and smaller. I’ve been mulling that question over for a bit. It’s a great question and brings me to just looking at whats here.

Let's look in all the nooks and crannies to see if we can find a self :)

They certainly have. I generally noticed it in my behaviour, I feel more free and able to just do things. I feel more open with people and generally less self conscious. More present / things do feel more intimate (less of a barrier). There are more times of a quiet joy and like a warm glow inside.

Yes, so something has changed. So are the below thoughts true (quoting you below)?

- "that’s not it"
- "you’re just regurgitating things you’ve read"
- or a sense of doubt or im not clear

Follow-up questions: Clear about what exactly? Is thinking trying to be clear about it not being an inherent self? What's going on here? :)

It sounds silly and very confusing written down and sorry I’m not articulating very well, I’m hoping you might know a good way to look at this.

Yes. Share honestly what's going on, especially if it seems silly, because then we can look.

I think the root of it for me (or the root of me) is that I believe that I am actually this that’s writing and thinking. It sounds silly and very confusing written down and sorry I’m not articulating very well, I’m hoping you might know a good way to look at this. It seems like a step backwards but I feel like I might be getting to the root of a belief, that I believe I am an autonomous thinker. There was a lot of fearful energy when that question initially came up. A lot less now after writing this and it might change by morning but thought I should say it.

Use the deep looking questions above on the fearful energy. See if it's protecting something.

And then answer these:

- What does it mean to be an autonomous thinker?
- What is it that you are in control of?

The sense of a controller and a separate entity so on is strongly felt as that (the thinking or thinker).

How do you create this sense?

Imagine I'm an alien and have no idea how to do this separate entity thing. Teach me, step-by-step, how to create it. What components in direct experience do I need, in what order, and then how do I use thoughts?

[okjose]

Morning Henri,

Thank you the deep looking video was so helpful.
It's taken a while to respond to this, I've actually gone through it possibly too many times and done a bit too much thinking on it all. I'm finding it harder and harder to articulate at times but really feel like things are shifting and the core of a belief is being challenged.

Yes, so something has changed. So are the below thoughts true (quoting you below)?

- "that’s not it"
- "you’re just regurgitating things you’ve read"
- or a sense of doubt or im not clear

No they’re not, they are thoughts that seem to be mostly based around projecting a future attainment (aka another thought) and and saying this isn’t it. It’s like a loop.

Follow-up questions: Clear about what exactly? Is thinking trying to be clear about it not being an inherent self? What's going on here? :)

This all seems to be thought trying to work it out or grasp at something, but thought can’t see outside of thought. It’s like it doesn’t lead anywhere.
Yes it is like thought is trying to be clear that it’s not being an inherent self but of course it can’t, these are all thoughts.


Something started to turn around yesterday when I was looking at the sense of “me the thinker”. There was a glimpse of another perspective, like I had it backwards. I went from "I am doing thinking" to "thinking is doing or making the I". That’s not seen so clearly today but it feels like I have “me” in crosshairs so to speak. Like I can really delve into this sense of me /identity and look at it. I was doing this last night in bed, it brought up fear but I was able to stay open and not be afraid of the feelings. It was seen that I come from nowhere like thought comes from nowhere maybe.

Use the deep looking questions above on the fearful energy. See if it's protecting something.

And then answer these:

- What does it mean to be an autonomous thinker?

It feels or looks like I can produce thought (but that “I” cannot be found or seen).

- What is it that you are in control of?

I can count to 10 with thought. But it can be seen that counting to 10 is a thought happening to no one.

The sense of a controller and a separate entity so on is strongly felt as that (the thinking or thinker).
How do you create this sense?

I don’t know. I guess I don’t.

Imagine I'm an alien and have no idea how to do this separate entity thing. Teach me, step-by-step, how to create it. What components in direct experience do I need, in what order, and then how do I use thoughts?

Okay so take sensation, smell, taste, sight and hearing we basically just say they are owned by something called a "you". You is like a thought with no centre. You are told there is a centre a solid thing in there called you so you go along with it and then it’s just a matter of pretending…


This was quite funny and I think impossible. I went through a few versions then I gave up to be honest. I can see how it naturally ends up revealing the fact of the matter.


It’s all getting a bit loose and messy but I can see it makes way more sense to say there just isn’t an "I" here. That solves it. But this sense of identity, what’s that? Just a thought? Maybe something protecting something?

I can see that I’m getting lost in thoughts so to speak. Every time I've come back to this dialogue i've ended up deep into thought or maybe I should say thoughts take over the show. But then things are seen when I come away from it all. It’s all getting a bit messy but In a good way. I want to challenge this whole notion.

[okjose]

sorry forgot to quote where you say "Follow up questions"

[Bluejay]

I went from "I am doing thinking" to "thinking is doing or making the I". That’s not seen so clearly today but it feels like I have “me” in crosshairs so to speak.

The "I" is a label, and thought labels things. We can say that there's a school, but that's just a label for a bunch of things happening such as students, books, buildings, teachers, which in and of themselves are labels. The "I" is similar.

Without thinking, there is no "I".

I was doing this last night in bed, it brought up fear but I was able to stay open and not be afraid of the feelings. It was seen that I come from nowhere like thought comes from nowhere maybe.

Excellent. Being able to stay with whatever emerges is essential.

I can count to 10 with thought. But it can be seen that counting to 10 is a thought happening to no one.

Let's examine this:

- Where did the idea to count to 10 come from?
- Why not count to 3 or 5 or 17?
- Are you in control of learning numbers and being able to count to 10?
- Can you count to 10 every time without getting distracted by other thoughts?

Okay so take sensation, smell, taste, sight and hearing we basically just say they are owned by something called a "you". You is like a thought with no centre. You are told there is a centre a solid thing in there called you so you go along with it and then it’s just a matter of pretending…

This was quite funny and I think impossible. I went through a few versions then I gave up to be honest. I can see how it naturally ends up revealing the fact of the matter.

The whole charade falls apart when looked at, doesn't it? :)

It’s all getting a bit loose and messy but I can see it makes way more sense to say there just isn’t an "I" here. That solves it. But this sense of identity, what’s that? Just a thought? Maybe something protecting something?

- Where is this sense of identity felt in the body?
- What is it made of? (in direct experience)
- Look closely at the sensations and how they move
- Do these sensations think they are an identity/"I"?
- What is the sense of identity without thought?

For this next part, try to really get into it if possible:

Imagine that you are walking in the forest at night, alone. It's dark. You only have a flashlight. You here rustling in the forest, but convince yourself it's nothing. Then suddenly the flashlight dies. The rustling comes closer. You feel something like a breath on the back of your neck.

- What do you feel?
- Is there a sense of fear, anxiety, or something else?
- How is this 'sense' different from the sense of identity?
- How was this sense created?
- How is the sense of identity created?

[okjose]

The "I" is a label, and thought labels things. We can say that there's a school, but that's just a label for a bunch of things happening such as students, books, buildings, teachers, which in and of themselves are labels. The "I" is similar.

Thanks yes I see this again now. This makes it so simple.

Without thinking, there is no "I".

Thus is true! It's only in thought / it is thought.

I can count to 10 with thought. But it can be seen that counting to 10 is a thought happening to no one.
Let's examine this:

- Where did the idea to count to 10 come from?

Thin air / aka nowhere. It was triggered by the question but it came out of nothing.

- Why not count to 3 or 5 or 17?

I don't know why but this made me laugh. It wasn't decided it just happened.

- Are you in control of learning numbers and being able to count to 10?

No it's almost mechanical or automatic, I'm not in control of how either of those things happen or work.

- Can you count to 10 every time without getting distracted by other thoughts?

No other thoughts sort of interject between the counting. But it seems that I can control some thoughts and not others.

This was quite funny and I think impossible. I went through a few versions then I gave up to be honest. I can see how it naturally ends up revealing the fact of the matter.

The whole charade falls apart when looked at, doesn't it? :)

Yes is does. It's so obvious and simple but somehow the mind makes a riddle out of it. Convinced theres more to what's evident.

- Where is this sense of identity felt in the body?

I’m not too sure now, it seems very weak. I'd say the middle of my head. Where it is thought the inner voice or voice thought resides.

- What is it made of? (in direct experience)

Thought and a bit of contraction/tension maybe

- Look closely at the sensations and how they move

It's not static, its always morphing.

- Do these sensations think they are an identity/"I"?

A sensation can’t do that.

- What is the sense of identity without thought?

It disappears without thought. It is a thought.

For this next part, try to really get into it if possible:

Imagine that you are walking in the forest at night, alone. It's dark. You only have a flashlight. You here rustling in the forest, but convince yourself it's nothing. Then suddenly the flashlight dies. The rustling comes closer. You feel something like a breath on the back of your neck.

- What do you feel?

Heart rate goes up, breathing faster, tension sensation where I feel the breathing

- Is there a sense of fear, anxiety, or something else?

Energy in the body, not necessarly fear or anxiety. It’s the same components but not being labeled anything.

- How is this 'sense' different from the sense of identity?

Yes it’s very much the same! Of course imagining something is there has that effect! :) (This is a great way to see this). If I imagine the I is there Im going to feel it. Thanks I like this.

- How was this sense created?

Thought said theres a person here. It looks like this.. and is here..

- How is the sense of identity created?

Maybe by being told this? Im not sure. Thought says it’s here. But it infact “it” is a thought or picture of a body (imagination) and sensations. Thought labels this mass of things going on (sensation, sight, hearing, thinking, tasting, smelling) a person.


Thought labels with the word I (or Jose, or me etc….) and then it starts sticking a load of others ideas to it. To create a separate thing.
Thought labels chair or apple exactly the same way then attaches knowledge about the thing. We’re taught to label as children then a story is attached to the label.

Mum points at moon, kid directly experiences image and colour and then mum says that it’s labelled and then tells a story about it and then moon becomes a thing of its own with a history and feeling even… maybe I’m wrong but feels like something like that?

With the self the labelling or thought can be pretty constant repetitive. This is why we like to do things / activities to take our mind away from the me thought?

[Bluejay]

- What is it made of? (in direct experience)
Thought and a bit of contraction/tension maybe

Remember the Inner GPS exercise we did? The sense of self is a feeling of contraction. Usually contraction means a no from the body, or a lie even.

It's not true.

Maybe by being told this? Im not sure. Thought says it’s here. But it infact “it” is a thought or picture of a body (imagination) and sensations. Thought labels this mass of things going on (sensation, sight, hearing, thinking, tasting, smelling) a person.

Part of the confusion is probably because it's all lumped together. You've looked at the different senses (hearing, seeing, feeling, etc).

But when you put it together, it can feel like an "I", but is it?

I’m not too sure now, it seems very weak. I'd say the middle of my head. Where it is thought the inner voice or voice thought resides.

So the middle of the head, is that the sense of self, or are there just sensations there because that's where you think the inner voice resides?

In other words, there is awareness in that area, which means there will likely be sensations.

So if you thought the inner voice resided in your toes, you would be aware of your toes, and there would be sensations, right?

Would that mean that the sense of identity is real?

With the self the labelling or thought can be pretty constant repetitive. This is why we like to do things / activities to take our mind away from the me thought?

Often the thinking and selfing is the distraction. There are unpleasant sensations, then instead of feeling them directly, there's distraction into want/don't want, which turns into blame, anger, irritation, and so on. In spiritual circles it turns into detachment and witnessing (these things are not all bad, just in this context).

And often these distractions are ways to survive when we are younger, because it can be difficult to face sensations head on.

No other thoughts sort of interject between the counting. But it seems that I can control some thoughts and not others.

I pulled this quote down here because there's an exercise that'll help you explore this:

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy! :)

[okjose]

But when you put it together, it can feel like an "I", but is it?

No, it’s not actually, its many things maybe too many to specify. “I” is a label and a way to try to make it a single thing (which in reality it’s not).

So the middle of the head, is that the sense of self, or are there just sensations there because that's where you think the inner voice resides?

There are sensations there because that where it’s imagined the inner voice resides.

So if you thought the inner voice resided in your toes, you would be aware of your toes, and there would be sensations, right?

Yes.

Would that mean that the sense of identity is real?
No. It's imagined.

With the self the labelling or thought can be pretty constant repetitive. This is why we like to do things / activities to take our mind away from the me thought?
Often the thinking and selfing is the distraction. There are unpleasant sensations, then instead of feeling them directly, there's distraction into want/don't want, which turns into blame, anger, irritation, and so on. In spiritual circles it turns into detachment and witnessing (these things are not all bad, just in this context).

And often these distractions are ways to survive when we are younger, because it can be difficult to face sensations head on.

No other thoughts sort of interject between the counting. But it seems that I can control some thoughts and not others.
I pulled this quote down here because there's an exercise that'll help you explore this:

Thanks I was hoping you would :)

Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities appeared by themelves. The actual preference appeared by itself. It seemed like a little internal dialogue weighed up which is better to drink right now but the actual preference wasn’t chosen.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No it was just doing it, doing what it was instructed.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I heard an internal voice which felt like a “me” choosing at the time but in retrospect a voice /thought was observed. It felt like the body wanted to do one thing and thought another so there was hesitation. I did not directly experience the choosing but thought was directly experienced.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No I didn’t directly experience the choosing but I did observe the thought and it felt like I was choosing.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

No, a feeling can't autonomously choose.

So to be clear, the body moves and the thinking comments? I was wondering how could there be hesitation then, but then again why not. It's just how things are functioning?

[Bluejay]

So to be clear, the body moves and the thinking comments? I was wondering how could there be hesitation then, but then again why not. It's just how things are functioning?

This is a great question.

What if the hesitation simply means the pie hasn't finished cooking yet?

Or in the Inner GPS exercise, hesitation would be a no from the body.

If you get a yes from the body, but there's still hesitation, that would most likely be fear, shame, guilt, or one of their relatives.

If you want to explore this further, a specific example would be good.

Now let's check in on a thought you had:

But it seems that I can control some thoughts and not others.

After the drinks exercise...

- Do you still have control over some thoughts?
- If yes, which ones?

It's also good to distinguish between control and a controller. The latter doesn't exist. There can be a actions to control something, but there is no entity doing the controlling. It's just what is happening.

Decisions also happen in life, but like in the drinks example, they just happen, without a decider.

[okjose]

What if the hesitation simply means the pie hasn't finished cooking yet?

I love this analogy. This definitely feels right and makes it very simple.

Or in the Inner GPS exercise, hesitation would be a no from the body.

If you get a yes from the body, but there's still hesitation, that would most likely be fear, shame, guilt, or one of their relatives.

This reminds me of sitting on the wall (during Inner GPS) when the urge to walk along it came.
The body reacted to the visual of the wall and the thought of walking along it with relaxation and ease.
Then there was the thought "I'll look silly, others will react
negativly" (which could also be interpreted as this isn't safe) and the body reacted with tension to that thought.
This is more fascinating than I first realised. I'm going to keep observing and playing with this. Especially when it comes to hesitation.

If you want to explore this further, a specific example would be good.

Thanks yes, a good example would be to do with social anxiety.
I almost aways hesitate giving an answer when invited to social gatherings. If it sounds fun, there's a relaxing feeling in the body or no resistance and the initial thought is to say yes.
Then what's first noticed is tension and unease in the body, but actually the thought/imagination of it being a bad experience arises first and then the body responds with tension.
So then there’s this seeming back and forth, but I guess it's the body just responding to what it’s being given at each moment?

Now let's check in on a thought you had:
But it seems that I can control some thoughts and not others.
After the drinks exercise...

- Do you still have control over some thoughts?

No they seem more equal now. The ones that were believed to be “me” (like the inner voice counting) comes with a bit of sensation because awareness is placed on where it's believed the inner voice/thought
emanated from but it's much clearer that no one is deciding which thought to have.

- If yes, which ones?

The inner voice thought still has some sensation occurring but to think I see why now. There might be some habit but I think it’s easy to let go of that idea of control now.

It's also good to distinguish between control and a controller.
The latter doesn't exist. There can be a actions to control something, but there is no entity doing the controlling. It's just what is happening.

I see this can be observed right now, I just tried it with holding my phone and it's clear theres no controller behind the hand controlling the weight of the phone.

Decisions also happen in life, but like in the drinks example, they just happen, without a decider.

[Bluejay]

Thanks yes, a good example would be to do with social anxiety.
I almost aways hesitate giving an answer when invited to social gatherings. If it sounds fun, there's a relaxing feeling in the body or no resistance and the initial thought is to say yes.
Then what's first noticed is tension and unease in the body, but actually the thought/imagination of it being a bad experience arises first and then the body responds with tension.
So then there’s this seeming back and forth, but I guess it's the body just responding to what it’s being given at each moment?

This could be trauma. Meaning, something happened earlier in your life that made you hesitant about social gatherings. Maybe people not understanding you and having bad experiences that way. Those are then brought up by the mind like "Remember this?" and there is tension.

It could also be something for after seeing through the self illusion, because with the illusionary self out of the way, it's much easier to work with these kind of reactions.

I used to have similar social anxiety, and it has become much less after seeing through self, but it really depends.

The inner voice thought still has some sensation occurring but to think I see why now. There might be some habit but I think it’s easy to let go of that idea of control now.

All right. Let me know if it resurfaces and you want to cover it here. We can look at it again. This process comes down to repeatedly looking until something clicks.

All I'm doing here is giving your brain examples of how to look. Then the looking happens by itself, or it doesn't.

I see this can be observed right now, I just tried it with holding my phone and it's clear theres no controller behind the hand controlling the weight of the phone.

Decisions also happen in life, but like in the drinks example, they just happen, without a decider.

Okay, excellent :)

Let's add some variety and try a weirder exercise:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centered in the head, or behind the eyes.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centered in the head.

And before the apple disappears....

...imagine a canary centered in the head, tweeting away. And before the canary flies off (weird huh?)....

...imagine a 'me' centered in the head. Stay with it...

...imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it...

...imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. :)

[okjose]

This could be trauma. Meaning, something happened earlier in your life that made you hesitant about social gatherings. Maybe people not understanding you and having bad experiences that way. Those are then brought up by the mind like "Remember this?" and there is tension.

It could also be something for after seeing through the self illusion, because with the illusionary self out of the way, it's much easier to work with these kind of reactions.

I used to have similar social anxiety, and it has become much less after seeing through self, but it really depends.

Thanks, yes this makes a lot of sense. There are some early childhood memories of feeling this way.

The inner voice thought still has some sensation occurring but to think I see why now. There might be some habit but I think it’s easy to let go of that idea of control now.
All right. Let me know if it resurfaces and you want to cover it here. We can look at it again. This process comes down to repeatedly looking until something clicks.

All I'm doing here is giving your brain examples of how to look. Then the looking happens by itself, or it doesn't.

Thanks will do.

Let's add some variety and try a weirder exercise:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centered in the head, or behind the eyes.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centered in the head.

And before the apple disappears....

...imagine a canary centered in the head, tweeting away. And before the canary flies off (weird huh?)....

...imagine a 'me' centered in the head. Stay with it...

...imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it...

...imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. :)

I tried this for the first time yesterday evening while I was at work in the wine shop, during a quiet period. When I first did it, it felt like something subtley shifted. I was in the shop front sat by the till on my own and just after trying this my colleague walked in and started doing something by the shelves. I was watching him and for about 10 seconds it felt like I was watching a movie (it was like what happened when I was watching the bird during Inner GPS). Like for a moment I wasn’t in the scene. It was relaxing and I wanted to just stay silent and keep observing but there was the thought that he might get uncomfortable when he sees me staring. He looked at me and asked "oh are you tired?”. But I wasn't, just very relaxed. I got up off my chair and walked to get some water. Then I started to notice some fear and the thought of losing control infront of people arose. I tried my best to allow it and let it be felt fully as best I could in that environment. I guess it wasn't the best time to try this experiment but also why not and that's what happened. I then had to make a delivery and then it was off home to have dinner with my partner so I wasn't alone to really feel into this but I left myself open for it as best I could while interacting (didn’t try to push it/fear away). The fear of “losing control” is like the feeling of losing some sort of stability, - I imagine that’s the illusory self and false sense of control being challenged (or even just looked at).

Now when I try this exercise it leaves a subtle spacious feeling in the head.

I do enjoy these exercises :)

[Bluejay]

But I wasn't, just very relaxed. I got up off my chair and walked to get some water. Then I started to notice some fear and the thought of losing control infront of people arose. I tried my best to allow it and let it be felt fully as best I could in that environment. I guess it wasn't the best time to try this experiment but also why not and that's what happened. I then had to make a delivery and then it was off home to have dinner with my partner so I wasn't alone to really feel into this but I left myself open for it as best I could while interacting (didn’t try to push it/fear away). The fear of “losing control” is like the feeling of losing some sort of stability, - I imagine that’s the illusory self and false sense of control being challenged (or even just looked at).

Yes, why not indeed. That's excellent that you can stay with the fear.

Only time I would avoid these exercises is if you're driving or operating heavy machinery. Common sense stuff.

The thought about your colleague becoming uncomfortable seems normal and just being considerate of other people.

There is an illusion of control when there's an illusionary self operating, but remember that nothing changes, only the illusion. No amount of control is lost or can be lost.

A quote comes to mind:

"Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists." - A Course in Miracles

Next I'm going to give you something simple that you can do as many times during the day as you can, whenever you remember. If you want to, you can set a reminder for it.

Simply repeat: There is no inherent self, is it true?

Then be silent. Note any thoughts and let them pass. Be in direct experience. Simply listen and watch.

This can be as short as 10 seconds or as long as you want when you have more time.

Let me know what is found :)

[okjose]

A quote comes to mind:
"Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists." - A Course in Miracles

I like this!

Next I'm going to give you something simple that you can do as many times during the day as you can, whenever you remember. If you want to, you can set a reminder for it.

Simply repeat: There is no inherent self, is it true?

Then be silent. Note any thoughts and let them pass. Be in direct experience. Simply listen and watch.

This can be as short as 10 seconds or as long as you want when you have more time.

Let me know what is found :)

Just to check should this be said aloud? Or doesn't matter?