The Gate

Hi Rali
Here you go!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.
What is clearly "seen" is that there are thoughts, sensations, seeing, hearing, tasting and smelling being experienced.
Is there a "who" or a "what" experiencing them?
No.
But I also can't say that there's "nothing" experiencing.
Is it a "thing" that can be found or located or even described?
No.
There's just an awareness, a consciousness, an awake-ness.
It isn't a "thing" but it's also not "nothing".

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

As I see it now, the illusion of a separate self starts when one is very young.
It's been recognized that this is predominantly a pretty intense sensation in the body of dense, heavy contraction.
Then a whole bunch of thoughts will come up about it.
It's also been noticed that "fear" is the primary driver for this "sense of self".
The primary "trigger" of this "fear" is "other people".
I can totally experience that there's no separation between "me" and a "tree", but "other people" trigger "fear" and that makes it quite difficult to experience that there isn't a separation between us.
So I think this "sense of self" is very tied up in not feeling safe.
I was taught by "others" that my natural "way of being" was not okay and that to be accepted by, and therefore safe with, "others" I had to believe certain thoughts, act certain ways, or avoid certain thoughts or acting certain ways.
I was taught that I would not be liked, loved, accepted or safe if I did not "be" in the proper way.
This sense of self has struggled between being safe with others vs just naturally being.
The other thing that seems to solidify a "sense of self" is wanting/not wanting. Desire for pleasure/aversion to pain.
This can be seen as thoughts/sensations happening that are labeled as "yes/no", however this mechanism feels like a difficult conditioned habit to break even when seen through.
It's hard to stop wanting what you want and stop not wanting what you don't want.
Especially when there's no "one" who can stop anything!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels quite liberating.
Although there are still "fear responses" that arise, I am now seeing them for what they are rather than being unconsciously controlled by them.
The biggest difference since starting this guiding is that there is more of a stabilizing of "presence" in each moment.
Before, there was a habit of being more focused on thought stories about analyzing the past or preparing for the future.
"Right now" was never a place I wanted to be in even though it was the only place I actually was!

Another thing that's noticed is that there's more "ease" being experienced as the illusion of "control" is being seen through.
It's noticed that the natural flow of things just happening is actually perfect and nothing to be "afraid" of.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I honestly can't answer that.
I could tell a story about how suffering and feeling there has to be more to the "reality" of things led to one teaching led to another led to another, etc but honestly it just happened.
Just like everything else.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

"I decided to answer these questions"
Well the thought appeared that I could answer these questions.
Then other thoughts appeared that maybe I couldn't or shouldn't or wouldn't answer the questions.
All kinds of thoughts appeared and then answering the questions happened.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention is thoughts about the purpose of an action.
Example: I give someone a gift (action) and the intention (thoughts about the purpose) is to show them I care and they are important to me.

Describe free will & give examples from experience

.
Free will is thoughts that I have a separate and distinct will apart from other separate, distinct wills and apart from one, universal will.
It is thoughts that there is a separate, distinct "me" capable of choosing or controlling what happens.
Example: I am using my free will to choose to answer this question and decide what words to use and I could also use my free will to choose to stop answering this question.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is thoughts that there is an ability to select one thing instead of selecting another thing.
And thoughts that this selecting could have happened differently.
Example: There is water and tea in the fridge. Thoughts say, do I want water or tea?
Then thoughts say, tea.
So tea is "chosen" instead of water.
Then thoughts say, I should have chosen the water, or what if I would have chosen water instead?

Describe control & give examples from experience

.
Control is thoughts that there is an "I" here that it is capable of manipulating, altering, directing, forcing, manifesting or creating what happens.
Example: "I" am driving (controlling) a car. There is a "me" turning the steering wheel, putting my foot on the brake/gas pedal, shifting gears, etc.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

This is not a question I have an answer for without it being a theory. There can be what appears to be "cause and effect", I drop a plate on the floor (cause) the plate breaks when it hits the floor (effect). But when you look at multiple occurrences of "cause/effect" situations, you can see that the effects of one cause are not always the same.
Sometimes you drop a plate and it doesn't break.
You can drop multiple plates and they will all break in different ways or some won't break at all.
So there can't really be "cause/effect" if the "cause/effect" aren't the same every single time.
So there's no answer for how things happen.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility is thoughts about being assigned the role of being the one "in charge" of doing something or producing an outcome.
Example: I am responsible for the care and safety of my young child.
Am I actually responsible for this?
No.
This is only thoughts.
There is only "care of a young child" happening or not happening.
So I can't be responsible for anything since responsibility is only thoughts/ideas.

6) Anything to add?

I only want to touch on repressed thoughts.
I think this gets ignored in many non-dual/no-self teachings and at least in this experience, that is just a bypass.
When thoughts are conscious they can be explored but when thoughts are repressed they are not there to be seen, yet they can still very much be running a program of "self".
This was where I was stuck until I found a teacher named Scott Killoby who offers very powerful inquiry that uncovers what has been repressed.
I feel there are many people (if not all) who run into this yet it is rarely addressed.

Hi Allyn

It's up to you but your "lack of readiness" might actually show in your answers, which are looked by the other guides - just to check that we haven't missed anything. We can always come back to the final questions. BUT if there is no doubt in any form that there is no self in any form and shape, go for them and we can continue working with whatever has shown up after that. It's entirely up to you.
Just remember that seeing that there is no self is not the end of the exploration. All that conditioning was not aquired in a day so it will not disappear in a day too :)

Love
Rali

Please ignore, I just saw your answers :)

Hey Allyn

Thank you for your answers!

What is clearly "seen" is that there are thoughts, sensations, seeing, hearing, tasting and smelling being experienced.
Is there a "who" or a "what" experiencing them?
No.
But I also can't say that there's "nothing" experiencing.
Is it a "thing" that can be found or located or even described?
No.
There's just an awareness, a consciousness, an awake-ness.
It isn't a "thing" but it's also not "nothing".

Is there anything separate from experiencing that experiences "it"? If it can't be known (found, located or described) what makes it different from fiction/thought? Does experiencing need a witness to happen?
Love
Rali

Hi Allyn
Welcome home!
Please answer the questions above anyway! This is not particularly about no self, and that's why you "passed the gate" :), but it might be helpful in your further exploration. You can find more help with them here (it's actually about one of the fetters):
https://www.simplytheseen.com/3-the-sin ... usion.html

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on YouTube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with Vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
Sydney (EST) Australia. 6 am right now
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali

Hello 🤗
Thank you ever so much for your extremely helpful guiding!
I am definitely going to answer those last questions you sent, however I have a few questions as well.

This is not particularly about no self, and that's why you "passed the gate" :)

* Can you please clarify a bit what you mean here?

* I have joined the Facebook group and emailed Luchana and Ilona about their meetings. I am already connected with Vince's meeting. I have also explored some of the Unleashed forum.
This is all really great and I'm sure these things will be helpful, however I think I would benefit most in deepening this by being able to engage in a more direct, structured, 1 on 1 situation.
Ideally with someone I can speak with by phone or video meeting.
For some reason it is more difficult for me to write out or type out my answers to questions and get these thoughts out "on paper" than it is for me to speak them.
It also takes me quite a long time to draft the responses.
I currently have kind of a busy and unpredictable schedule and though I can absolutely schedule in focus time to devote to this exploration, I frequently cannot attend the group zoom meetings because I'm at work when they are scheduled.
Are there any guides or any resources you could point me to that might provide this type of guiding?

* I would love to hear your thoughts and maybe your experience with "seeing through the illusion of fear" since that seems to be a big one for me.

It's also been noticed that "fear" is the primary driver for this "sense of self".
The primary "trigger" of this "fear" is "other people".
I can totally experience that there's no separation between "me" and a "tree", but "other people" trigger "fear" and that makes it quite difficult to experience that there isn't a separation between us.
So I think this "sense of self" is very tied up in not feeling safe.
I was taught by "others" that my natural "way of being" was not okay and that to be accepted by, and therefore safe with, "others" I had to believe certain thoughts, act certain ways, or avoid certain thoughts or acting certain ways.
I was taught that I would not be liked, loved, accepted or safe if I did not "be" in the proper way.
This sense of self has struggled between being safe with others vs just naturally being.

Any insight?

Is there anything separate from experiencing that experiences "it"?

No, the "it" IS the experiencing.

If it can't be known (found, located or described) what makes it different from fiction/thought?

Wow. This is a great question.
First of all, I wouldn't say that it can't be "known", but it's like it IS the "knowing" that can in a sense, "know" itself just as it can "know" the DE of sensing and thoughts.
However what appears to differentiate the knowing of "it" from the knowing of sensing and thoughts, is that "it" never changes, "it" is stable and consistent through all experiences, while sensing and thought appear to constantly "move, change, or even disappear entirely" from awareness.
Yet the awareness, the knowing, remains constant and unchanging.

Does experiencing need a witness to happen?

Well experiencing IS the witness.

Hi Allyn

* Can you please clarify a bit what you mean here?

Well seeing that there is no self just opens the door for more exploration…

Ideally with someone I can speak with by phone or video meeting.

Both Ilona and Luchana do that, so you can contact them and ask. Ilona offers deep looking which helps with emotions like fear.

* I would love to hear your thoughts and maybe your experience with "seeing through the illusion of fear" since that seems to be a big one for me.

Fear is an emotion = sensation + thought. The best way to “deal” with difficult emotions is to stay with the pure sensations without the thought content. While doing that inquire if the actual sensation knows anything about “fear”. What/who is in danger? What/who needs to be protected? That is what “fear” serves as – protection for the illusory self from the outside world. Also are “you” in charge of the decisions and actions that need to be taken in order to be “safe”? Do you see how the plot thickens? You can call it bypassing but thoughts say funny things that all spring from the illusion that there is someone that is danger and needs to be protected. You can take these thoughts and pull them like a thread to see where they lead to and it will be a never ending ball of yarn. The best is to see directly if protection is ACTUALLY needed.

So let’s inquire further here

The primary "trigger" of this "fear" is "other people".

It can actually work both ways – “fear” creates “other people”, and “others” reinforce a “self” and the need to be protected. Can you see that?

Let’s inquire again what “other people” are
Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced? Can you directly experience "others"?
Are others somehow outside of seeing? What is the difference between seeing an ‘stranger’, seeing an ’enemy’, and seeing a ‘friend’ in DE – they are all colour with different thought content, right? How is one colour different from another in DE if all there is to colour is seeing?

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. It’s like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-illu ... 806339.jpg

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a speech but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just sensing? Are others outside of sensing? Where is the border that marks where sensing ends and "other" begin?
Also, is there space where these others exist? Again what is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

It’s not the same approach as the looking for the “I” when it comes to ”others” as you can’t really see that that they don’t have an “I” – it’s a deduction (thinking). How we approach it from DE is the same way we see there is no “apple” – that apple is a label. How are objects different from ‘others’? Why were objects easier? What about animals? If we have to repeat the same example but with a “person”:
Taste labelled ‘person’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘person’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘person’ is known (when a person is touched)
Smell labelled ‘person’ is known
Thought about/of a ‘person’ is known
However, is a ‘person' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘person’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘person’? Can ‘a person’ be found in actual experience?

Just because a “person” is label for many aspects of experience – seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting :), smelling :), the illusion of “real person” is better supported then the Illusion of a “tree” where there is no hearing (they don’t speak), which directly is linked to thought content. If you could speak “bird” I’m sure you’ll find them a lot more threatening ;). But what is speech without thought content (the interpretation of hearing)?

First of all, I wouldn't say that it can't be "known", but it's like it IS the "knowing" that can in a sense, "know" itself just as it can "know" the DE of sensing and thoughts.
However what appears to differentiate the knowing of "it" from the knowing of sensing and thoughts, is that "it" never changes, "it" is stable and consistent through all experiences, while sensing and thought appear to constantly "move, change, or even disappear entirely" from awareness.
Yet the awareness, the knowing, remains constant and unchanging.

I’m sorry but that sounds a lot like a teaching – like Rupert Spira etc. Did you look at that link that I sent you? If it can’t be separated from experience how can it be “stable” and “consistent”. That is still very much dualistic – experience and the knowing of it. The problem is that you forgetting that “seeing”, “hearing” etc are still labels pointing to the flux of THIS. Also is there really a flux (change) if you look deeper without thought differentiating between labels? Is it really like that?
Love
Rali

Ups my picture didn't appear as desired :)