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Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 3:43 am
by tk12443
Hi Rali.
So what is “just a sense” in terms of DE
"Just a sense" in DE is the same as sensation or maybe even a group of sensations before thought content attaches labels.
Senses are felt by whom?
Sensing and thinking are not felt by anyone. They appear and disappear and awareness is part of it - not separate. There is nothing separate. Nobody sensing, nobody thinking, nobody aware. Just a constant flow of energy appearing and disappearing.
Do you see a feel-er that feels the senses (experiencer)?
There is no feel-er or experiencer to be seen and there is no I to see it. There is just sensing and thinking.
So would you say that "sense" is similar to “being” or “aliveness”?
"Being" or "aliveness" is sense/sensing, yes.
How is life these days? Is there still seeking?
Life is good these days. Reactivity has lessened considerably and future thinking has diminished as well. More time is spent "smelling the roses" so to speak. Seeking has very nearly ceased. I've seen that there is no point in seeking but I have re-listened to some older teachings and have found clarity. The videos you recommended helped after a couple of times through. Is that seeking?

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:46 am
by poppyseed
Hi TK
Life is good these days. Reactivity has lessened considerably and future thinking has diminished as well. More time is spent "smelling the roses" so to speak. Seeking has very nearly ceased.
Amazing, isn’t it? Nothing changed, but everything looks different.
I've seen that there is no point in seeking but I have re-listened to some older teachings and have found clarity. The videos you recommended helped after a couple of times through. Is that seeking?
“Crashing the gate” may be the end of seeking, but it is not the end of exploration. Seeking may not stop immediately; it may still have momentum. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “your-self” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all the wrong beliefs, to settle in and adjust. The journey continues, the story carries on, but thoughts have been seen to be just thoughts. The story is no longer solid, true, or real.
When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in. The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought and activity, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of a life are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “your self” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?
You can find this video quite helpful in this regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD58 ... ex=27&t=1s
We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?
Love
Rali

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 3:06 am
by tk12443
Would you like to answer those?
Yes Rali, and thank you. That last message rings true.

This body's center of gravity feels like it has shifted a little lower. More grounded and stable :)

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 8:19 am
by poppyseed
Hi TK
Just a quick clarification. We didn’t explore “space” and “time” as they are not part of the “no-self” inquiry.
This body's center of gravity feels like it has shifted a little lower. More grounded and stable :)
What is a “body” again? How is “the center of gravity” experienced in DE? “Lower” in relation to what? You said earlier that there is no “here” and “there”. Are there “up” and “down”, “left” and “right”? Is there a “center”?
Please let me know if you want to explore “time” as well before we finish.

Love
Rali

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 11:39 am
by tk12443
What is a “body” again?
In DE, there is no "body". Nothing is separate from what is.
How is “the center of gravity” experienced in DE?
"Center of gravity" is a label used to describe a sensation that arose in the muscles and skeleton, which again are labels, when asked "How is life?".
“Lower” in relation to what? You said earlier that there is no “here” and “there”. Are there “up” and “down”, “left” and “right”? Is there a “center”?
There is not up, down, left, right, in, or out, center, etc. They are all labels used to interpret experience into language. They can be useful to convey ideas but the content of the ideas are just thoughts and are illusions.
Please let me know if you want to explore “time” as well before we finish.
Yes, exploring time would be helpful - but not to "me" of course :)

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 11:47 am
by poppyseed
Hi TK
Very good! Thank you for obliging me :)
Yes, exploring time would be helpful - but not to "me" of course :)
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Love
Rali

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 3:27 am
by tk12443
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
There is not an experience of "now" moving at all. Certainly not along a line.
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
In DE, there is not found to be any discreet units of "moment" so there is no crossover from one to the next.
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
In DE, there is nothing found that the label "event" refers to. There just is - just wholeness and not one "thing" following another "thing".
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
The present moment is not moving at all - it just is. No speed, no direction, no beginning or end.
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
No, there is not a beginning or an end to "this moment". "this moment" is also a label and only refers to a thought.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
The "now" has no beginning and no end, and time is just a concept, so there is no "length of time" and there is no "lasting in time".
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
There is only this - wholeness without boundaries of any kind. No shape, no direction, no space, no time, no past, no future, no start, no end.
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
The "now" does not move and there is no such thing as the "past" other than in thought. There is no boundary between "nows" (like train cars) so now never becomes the past.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
The past sometimes appears to be replayed like a movie in thought but in DE, there is no experience of "past".
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There is no actual experience of time, only thoughts about "time"

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 11:15 am
by poppyseed
HI TK

Wonderful!!!
Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 6:33 pm
by tk12443
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is not a separate “self”, “me”, or “I” at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. There never was and there never will be. It just is.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
There is no ability to directly experience this body/mind as a newborn but it appears that human babies are not born with any identity or concept of “separate self”. It appears that in the year after birth, babies naturally become inquisitive and begin to explore the perceived environment. When this happens, parents or whomever begin to introduce language labels so that the baby can slowly begin to recognize objects and gain knowledge. With a growing language and a budding curiosity for things to “play” with, babies are “taught” which objects are desirable and which are to be avoided. When a baby/toddler can express and communicate a desire for an object and experiences the result of a parent or whomever acting on that communication, a “sense of self” and “other” arises in the babies mind. A “sense of control” is perceived and learned and practiced repeatedly.

Sometimes it appears that young children get what they want and sometimes don’t get what they want. In either case, it appears that emotions lead to a reaction one way or another and it is perceived and learned how “others” react to that reaction. Because there is a developing “sense of self” and “others”, subtle and not so subtle manipulations appear to occur in order to accumulate “positive” experiences and to avoid “negative” experiences. “I” could go on but this is a generalization labelled “theory of mind”. In “my” experience, I helped raise 3 children up to the teen years and this fits with what I observed (apparently).

All of this is just story - In DE, “separate self” cannot be seen or felt anywhere. The concept is in a way “seen thru” and the selfish clinging to “me” or “mine” no longer leads this body/mind around like a nose ring in a bull.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
In DE, it feels as if there is now more space and more allowance to just be. There appears to be less stress dedicated to pursuit and accomplishment. There appears to be fewer thoughts regarding FOMO and less pressure put on “myself” to achieve success for I no longer see or feel a “myself”.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The apple.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Relatively, “decision” appears as a rational process that engages thought as a tool within the mind. The goal being to “choose” one desired result over another based on assumptions (thoughts) and perceptions (also thoughts). As an artist, or better yet - “when arting” - a painting’s “balance” (both color and form) can be tweaked to achieve or convey a desired emotion. Thought is engaged to compare and contrast potential concepts based on visual cues, bodily sensations, memories, theories, etc. Any “decision” can appear to be manifested with tools and materials (brushes and paint) and tested with senses (sight, etc.). Further decisions are made regarding these decisions and on and on until a piece of art appears to be “finished”.

All of this however is just thought and appears to be carried out by mind, by “ego”. Ultimately, in DE, there is no decision making. There are no decisions, just appearances. Brain activity can be apparently observed with MRI many seconds prior to the perception of “decision” which helps to realize there is no “me the decider”.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
As with “decision”, relative examples can be given but “intention” is just a thought and when feeling into DE, only sensing and thinking can be experienced. “Intention” is a label that refers to a thought or a string of thoughts. “Intentions” do not inherently exist.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Same as above. “Free will” is a concept that appears along with other concepts such as a “separate self”, “me”, and “mine”. When “separate self” is realized to be an illusion - a concept of mind, “free will” simultaneously dissolves. In DE, there is no “free will”. It does not inherently exist.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
“Choices” are thoughts and in DE, only thinking and sensing is real. The content of thoughts, ie. “choices” do not inherently exist.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
Since in DE, there cannot be found to be “decisions”, “intentions”, “free will”, or “choices”, so too “control” is not a “thing” and does not inherently exist.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
“Things” do not “happen”. There are no “things” and there is nothing “happening”. There are appearances. There just is.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This is a tricky one but strictly speaking, “I” am not “responsible” for anything. There is no inherently existing “I” and “responsibility” is a concept that refers to thought content which also do not inherently exist. Relatively speaking, there is a large story that can be created in response to this prompt but again, it would be just a story - not real.
6) Anything to add?
There just is. There is nothing to add and nothing to add to :). Just infinite paradox. Wholeness….

Re: I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

Posted: Fri May 05, 2023 9:38 am
by poppyseed
Hi Todd

Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.
Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on youtube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
Sydney (est) Australia. 6 am right now
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting.Ilona's is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali