The Gate

Hi Victoria,

Ah no my exams aren't finished just yet! One more week to go. But thank you :)

I used ‘delivery’ as the operative word I found useful at the time, appearance is good too, they both convey the same meaning to me: a thought that happens or appears, and for the duration of that thought, mind seems to exists as another sense; a sense that delivers thoughts, or thought arises, like hand delivers touch, or touch happens.

The mind seems to exist as another sense - which sense? Does it exist separate from thoughts? Is it a thought? Is it the content of the thoughts? If so, is it only the content of a thought?

Or maybe it's a thought + a feeling / sensation?

Later in a meeting with friends, I looked for overlaying thoughts in the experiences of the meeting. I noticed while I was listening that there was a residual awareness in the body, not a thought more like a faint body placed feeling, like an invisible skin, something that wanted to be ‘seen’, perhaps “me”?, difficult to put into words.

So some kind of sensation?

What about it had the "me-ness" to it?

Have a lovely evening,
Wesley

Good morning Wesley,

About mind

Mind is the six sense in Buddhism, with eye, ear, nose tongue and body. And mind doesn’t exist separate from thought.

Eyes ‘contact’ flower and mind thinks “it’s a red tulip”

The thought: “It’s red tulip” gives rise to a neutral, pleasant or unpleasant feeling or sensation in the body.; the liking of the red tulip in the heart area.

Each step arising in dependance of the other; co arising, co operating to make direct experience happen.

Having said all that, mind/thought is flaky, fantasising the direct experience of the other senses; the fantasy is “my liking” of the red tulip. The thought ‘its red tulip” it’s ok, but can be also a fantasy; what I see as red it can be orange or any other colour for anyone else!

And the “me-eness" to the overlying thought yesterday; the skin shape and tingling feeling, it was “I” shouting (operative word) 'I exist!', and yet it passed.

So thinking ok, but when it’s not the portal to ‘me’.

wishing you a good Sunday,

Victoria

PS: this is the second time I send the same message, it didn't seem to send the first time ..

Hi Victoria,

Mind is the six sense in Buddhism, with eye, ear, nose tongue and body. And mind doesn’t exist separate from thought.

Is this something you concluded from looking at your direct experience, or is it something that you were told?

Let's imagine you're having a debate. You say "mind doesn't exist separate from thought". And someone tells you "mind doesn't exist at all! If it does, prove it!".

How would you prove the existence of the mind?

To show the existence of thoughts it's easy enough, you could just write down a sentence and have someone read it in their head, and the will hear thoughts.

What about the mind?

Wishing you a peaceful day,
Wesley

Hello Wesley,

First of all, I am feeling strange, I feel I need to report this.

All the stuff I used to enjoy doing, find pleasure means nothing, feels empty. I find myself doing very little and simple things I had never thought of, and these gives rise to a hole feeling in my body when I notice that I don't care for what I used to do, or pleasant and warm, when engrossed in very simple activities that require no thinking.

Having said that, your question about mind.

Please, don’t ask me to define mind, where it is situated, what is it made of, etc, I can’t answer that to you or to any one, I simply don’t know.

In my experience, which is likely to be defiled, mind is provisionally the producer of thoughts which arises with other sensorial experience, this is the experience of this elusive sense that I call mind: mind + other sense = thought, and this sounds to me a fantasy right now.

In deep meditation, and even outside meditation, in nature, or being very present, there is no mind, no thought, and this is the only way that I have experienced it, or not experienced it at all, -independent of whether or not I am a practicing Buddhist.

All things and beings are connected, perhaps that is mind, or no mind, I don’t know. When I feel ‘that connected’ and present I also feel very light, with much less body pain -or none, and all passes by, simply, like clouds, and there is energy for spontaneous kindness and gratitude; in everything, for everything, connected to everything, part and whole of everything. In fact, time and space stop, as well as sensorial experience.

And this is a very direct experience I can report.

Wishing you a lovely evening,

Victoria

Hello again, Wesley,

Please, Wesley, be patient with me, I am doing my best,

These questioning times are challenging, and even though I am used to challenge and welcome it, I am not used to this systematic enquiry. I feel grateful for it, it's a great opportunity to break through I have been looking for, but sometimes I feel a bit breathless, abated, words feel limiting :(

I would welcome some screen time with a more 3D presence a chance of simply experience the fluid common humanity in direct experience, - the written stuff seems to fix, hallmark words.

Many thanks again,

Victoria

Hi Victoria,

I am very sorry for my lack of response. I had my final exam today and to say the least I was sort of in survival mode and hadn’t realized the time that had gone by.

I am done now and will be much more available, I apologize again for my delays here.

Tonight I don’t have my computer and I prefer to take the time and effort to respond correctly, so I will write tomorrow.

Thanks again for your patience.

Have a great day,
Wesley

Hi Victoria,

Sorry again, I just absolutely tunnel visioned and had forgotten about pretty much everything other than my exams, otherwise I would have given you a heads up.

All the stuff I used to enjoy doing, find pleasure means nothing, feels empty. I find myself doing very little and simple things I had never thought of, and these gives rise to a hole feeling in my body when I notice that I don't care for what I used to do, or pleasant and warm, when engrossed in very simple activities that require no thinking.

So if I understand, these small activities that you previously enjoyed now are giving rise to a hole feeling in the body? Do you have any guesses as to what it might be? What are your thoughts in those moments?

Please, don’t ask me to define mind, where it is situated, what is it made of, etc, I can’t answer that to you or to any one, I simply don’t know.

It will be hard to proceed if I can't ask questions about your experience, I will be honest. Because in the same sense, I am going to ask to define the "I", and where it is situated, etc. The not finding anything or not being able to answer it, is an answer in and of itself.

If the inquiry feels uncomfortable for you or you feel that we're looking into things that you would prefer not to look at feel free to let me know and we'll see what we can do?

I will put a pause on the questions and inquiry until I know you're ready to proceed.

These questioning times are challenging, and even though I am used to challenge and welcome it, I am not used to this systematic enquiry. I feel grateful for it, it's a great opportunity to break through I have been looking for, but sometimes I feel a bit breathless, abated, words feel limiting :(

I understand. We go at your pace, so if it's too much just let me know.

I would welcome some screen time with a more 3D presence a chance of simply experience the fluid common humanity in direct experience, - the written stuff seems to fix, hallmark words.

Regarding some screen time, I'm sorry but I've given it some thought and I don't think I'm ready to guide over video calls. If this is something that's very important for you, I can look and see if there are other guides that are doing video calls and see if someone is willing?

Hoping you're well,
Wesley

Hello Wesley,

I am glad to hear that all is ok with you, I didn’t know what happened; whether it was exams, health or simply not answering.

I hope your efforts get great results!

On into your response. But let me clarify that I am NOT AFRAID, or un wanting this enquiry, I am a human being! 3 dimensional, older, etc, and I am trying to adjust to the ways of enquiry, yours in particular, Is asking for a bit patience beyond comprehension or feeling? perhaps sometimes I would like to ask you questions, if that is ok.

About new activities:

Well it seems that I see life differently as described already, they are certainly more embodied, more sensorially in touch with the experience. The way of experiencing the world has taken a shift for me in that more sensorial way, for lack of a better word, and it feels good mostly. The old more complicated habits feel empty with no interest; disenchanting.

There are not many thoughts in those moments, one things follows the other, I ask you to read my last like now, I am seeing a very beautiful evening, light streams though the window it feels warm and light yellowing and I am enjoying it.

About mind:

I can’t prove that there is mind. I honestly cannot say anything much about mind other than it gives rise to a thought at a time, I don’t know anything else about mind, I said this before, and it’s a response to your challenge to “prove that there is mind” . As a Buddhist I can say that mind is another sense, and I cannot see anything discordant here, ie; touching, smelling is as valid a experience as thinking. In the end, I believe -because I have experienced it- senses also give rise to fantasies, like me and mine and everything that I call experience, or direct experience.

Provisionally, It may be healthier for me to trust the senses for direct experience, but soon, they become more of an illusion; my hand now typing, in deep awareness it loses its boundary with the rest of the world. The same applies to thoughts in concentration, they stop happening and in its place there is nothing.

Senses, mind, I, are fantasies to keep the illusion of “me in the world” alive. For now, provisionally I need the senses to function; you too needed them all 6 to study and do your exams.

“I” is becoming inconvenient in life; it distorts simple and satisfactory experience and its grasping makes it painful, and when I look, I cannot find ‘I’.

Other things:

I asked in my form for a Buddhist guide from Triratna tradition, but then I realised it didn't matter,

I am aware that you are not a Buddhist which is fine, I believe that this enquiry leads to the breaking/weakening of the first 3 fetters, this is what I have been told by a friend who has done it, and the fetters are a Buddhist teaching. What I am trying to say is that let’s give each other some kindness, because even though I am learning to enquiry and more, -a learner-, and you the guide guiding me, we are both human beings with weaknesses, strengths and lots potential, and I feel very humbled and joyful about that.

Feeling grateful

Victoria

Hello Again,

You highlight somethings and then you ask or enquire on them,

When you don't say anything about the rest, does that mean irrelevant, relevant, or lunatic :) ?

Thanks

Victoria

Hello Wesley,

May I start again, please? I apologise for the 2 previous posts because I am not liking myself there, I was unkind too.

I must say that with the shifts of experience, as I described before; more sensorial, embodies and simple and pleasant, I am also experiencing anxiety: what is happening? it's unexpected and I am not in control as used to be.

I am afraid that you may control me too! and afraid of not doing well in the enquiry like a naughty child would.

I ask myself why does Wesley not share what he is studying? I have been curious about that from the beginning plus where in the world you are, the uncertainty of it all piles on the anxiety.

As I write this I see how irrational it is all, but I am being honest.

I confess that I am attached to the idea of mind as a sense and if I had to prove that there is mind to someone I would say: there is mind because we study and that requires organised thought like in science and philosophy which is what mind does, so this is my proof. After that kind of example, I could not prove much, though: nor any substance, or form, or place for mind that I know.

I'll say good night for now, and apologise for making you read lots

And please take a break from so much study if you need to

Victoria

Good evening Victoria,

I hope your efforts get great results!

Thanks :). They were very difficult, I'll see how the results are later...

On into your response. But let me clarify that I am NOT AFRAID, or un wanting this enquiry, I am a human being! 3 dimensional, older, etc, and I am trying to adjust to the ways of enquiry, yours in particular, Is asking for a bit patience beyond comprehension or feeling? perhaps sometimes I would like to ask you questions, if that is ok.

I asked in my form for a Buddhist guide from Triratna tradition, but then I realised it didn't matter,

I am aware that you are not a Buddhist which is fine, I believe that this enquiry leads to the breaking/weakening of the first 3 fetters, this is what I have been told by a friend who has done it, and the fetters are a Buddhist teaching. What I am trying to say is that let’s give each other some kindness, because even though I am learning to enquiry and more, -a learner-, and you the guide guiding me, we are both human beings with weaknesses, strengths and lots potential, and I feel very humbled and joyful about that.

When you don't say anything about the rest, does that mean irrelevant, relevant, or lunatic :) ?

It seems that you are perhaps uncomfortable with my style of guiding? I do read everything you write and appreciate it all. I view my role sort of like the game "hot/cold", the closer you are to looking at what needs to be looked at, the more reactive I will be and the more I will invite you to dig there. The further away you are, the less attention I will pay to that. Not because I don't want to respond, but because if I respond to every single thing, the inquiry can become diluted and all of those answers distract you from the 1 or 2 essential questions to get you to look at your direct experience.

As for the Buddhist guide, I'm not sure if I would call myself a practicing Buddhist, but I have practiced Buddhism. I might have missed that you stated that in your post or perhaps I wouldn't have responded. If that's important to you, then perhaps a change of guide would be most appropriate?

One thing I would like to note however is that, no matter who the guide, our job is to ask you questions to get you to look. This looking can inherently be challenging and if it is, if the looking makes you feel uncomfortable or like it challenges something, then it likely means you're holding on to a belief. Seeing through beliefs isn't comfortable or fun. Yet that's exactly what this inquiry is - looking at the belief in a self.

May I start again, please? I apologise for the 2 previous posts because I am not liking myself there, I was unkind too.

I must say that with the shifts of experience, as I described before; more sensorial, embodies and simple and pleasant, I am also experiencing anxiety: what is happening? it's unexpected and I am not in control as used to be.

I am afraid that you may control me too! and afraid of not doing well in the enquiry like a naughty child would.

I ask myself why does Wesley not share what he is studying? I have been curious about that from the beginning plus where in the world you are, the uncertainty of it all piles on the anxiety.

Thanks for sharing about your feelings and anxiety. Well if it helps you to feel less anxious I'm happy to answer any questions about me you might have. I'm living in France right now studying Psychology by the way :).

Anyways no need to apologize Victoria :). But I would invite you to think on if you feel I'm the right fight for you as a guide? There's no harm if you feel there is maybe a better fit, especially if you would like a fellow Buddhist, perhaps from the Triratna tradition and that may be willing to do video calls?

My style is perhaps more direct and more challenging than what you're looking for? I am going to ask questions that might challenge pre-existing beliefs, and in particular spiritual beliefs as these often are what block seeing through the self-illusion. I say this because I had so many myself and they hindered my looking.

Let me know what you think and we can go from there!

Have a nice evening,
Wesley

Hello Wesley in France,

I can picture living in France and studying psychology as very appealing even to me due to Brexit, even if these times are 'final' for you. Are you French?, I used to speak a mighty good French, but lack of practice made it clanky, I live in London and I am Spanish.

I feel ashamed of my attitude, You are a fine guide, stay! I delight and appreciate your honesty and emotional detachment. Your directness and egoless ness permeate in what you say. I appreciate how you took the time to consider all the aspects of my last and full of words posts, and the equanimity for letting me go to another guide if I so desired. I would like to have you as my guide, please.

You see, I am here to break free from my strong views , the more the better, whether in the process I find great difficulty or not, I need the direct approach, the no nonsense that you are demonstrating to me.

AND I have two contrary feelings in my body; anxiety and relief. The first for noticing that little by little in this enquiry, I am losing control over my "precious" beliefs, my views. The latter for the new way of experiencing that is arising for me, and these opposite feelings are causing discomfort in my life and I am not sleeping well. In the process I have been planting my difficulties in you, including mirroring my fading trust: I had not been in a similar situation for a long time, thus the reticence, the doubt, the anxiety, but also the relief and peace.

And many thanks for telling me about you, regardless of screens!

Looking forward to hearing from you

Victoria

Hi Victoria,

I can picture living in France and studying psychology as very appealing even to me due to Brexit, even if these times are 'final' for you. Are you French?, I used to speak a mighty good French, but lack of practice made it clanky, I live in London and I am Spanish.

Yeah I came here almost 6 years ago to study, I'm American from the US actually. How cool that you spoke French! Yes unfortunately languages take constant work. Very interesting, so you're not so far away than.

I feel ashamed of my attitude, You are a fine guide, stay! I delight and appreciate your honesty and emotional detachment. Your directness and egoless ness permeate in what you say. I appreciate how you took the time to consider all the aspects of my last and full of words posts, and the equanimity for letting me go to another guide if I so desired. I would like to have you as my guide, please.

Don't feel bad, this can be an uncomfortable process. I understand completely. If you're sure, then yes I would be happy to continue guiding you.

You see, I am here to break free from my strong views , the more the better, whether in the process I find great difficulty or not, I need the direct approach, the no nonsense that you are demonstrating to me.

Ok! Perhaps it will help going forward if you know that is my guiding style. It is of course always to help you as best as I can. My job is to "poke", to ask questions that are going to challenge your beliefs (as that is the entire nature of this inquiry). If it feels like there is something to defend, it if feels uncomfortable, than that probably means we are doing something right. But if you need to take a break or breather that's ok too.

AND I have two contrary feelings in my body; anxiety and relief. The first for noticing that little by little in this enquiry, I am losing control over my "precious" beliefs, my views. The latter for the new way of experiencing that is arising for me, and these opposite feelings are causing discomfort in my life and I am not sleeping well. In the process I have been planting my difficulties in you, including mirroring my fading trust: I had not been in a similar situation for a long time, thus the reticence, the doubt, the anxiety, but also the relief and peace.

It seems it may help your anxiety knowing a bit about me and where I'm coming from so I hope you don't mind me sharing, because I do understand these contrary feelings. Before doing LU, I was obsessed with "awakening" and had tried most every spiritual practice like many. Zen buddhism in particular. And I was constantly at war with different spiritual practices and beliefs that seemed contradictory. At the time I was living in a Zen temple in Seattle and my roommate had been recommending LU to me, I think because he saw how tired of dogma and beliefs I was - it seemed that every spiritual tradition, every author, even my Zen teachers had a set of beliefs that they were trying to get me to believe (and this is very very sneaky because we are told they aren't beliefs, that they are spiritual truths or something like that). Another Zen teacher found out I was considering doing Liberation Unleashed, and they both literally offered to pay me (just something like 50-100$) to try and to finish LU. I only understood why someone would literally have paid me to do this until after, when I realized that...It simply worked. It worked when nothing else did for me. So many other practices or beliefs seemed to work for a while, but ultimately I still was stuck with this sense of restless searching. I was depressed, anxious, and felt that I just couldn't stop this tireless spiritual seeking and I was a bit disillusioned because *nothing* really worked, all of these teachings, psychology, books, videos, spiritual retreats, meditating, nothing truly solved my issue. It took me quite a while, around 6 months to finish LU. The "penny dropped" and I saw that I had been searching for something right under my nose. I actually went through a small period of complete rejection of all spiritual teachings because I was furious at how much brainwashing I had experienced (but this isn't to blame anyone, I just was so susceptible to it all because I was so desperate). I found it difficult to subscribe to my zen teachings, and to any kind of spiritual teaching after that because none of it seemed to resonate or matter and I just wanted to live life as I wasn't allowing myself to before. Sitting and meditating to attain anything whatsoever just seemed silly and ridiculous; instead I just enjoyed sitting because there was no longer any sense of "seeking".

Anyhow, my point is just to share with you that I do understand that we come from all different backgrounds and traditions. They all have value, and LU is not going to take any of that away from you. But holding onto spiritual beliefs was for me, probably the biggest hinderance to actually seeing through the illusion of self. And when I completed LU I was left with total astonishment, I thought to myself "I cannot believe that after all of this time, after everything I have tried...Something actually worked. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone, but I do believe that this works because it is not based on any dogma or beliefs. On the contrary, it's a stripping of these beliefs to see what is actually happening.

And you have talked about the 10 fetters which I am aware of. I was working on the 4th and 5th fetter after LU but the nut just isn't ready to crack for me and my priorities right now are to finish my career and focus on my more material life that was so neglected during my spiritual seeking years. Anyways, you may be aware that there is a 10 fetters group for those who are interested in continuing after liberation unleashed to break the other fetters. Satyadhana as he sometimes goes by, his Buddhist name, is the one who developed the guiding process for the remaining 8 fetters and he did LU himself. I got the pleasure of meeting him when I lived in Seattle. I was already so happy and content to have been freed from so much of my anxiety and depression that was mostly due to crazy spiritual beliefs and repressing "negative emotions". But I was equally as eager to break Desire and Ill Will, the 4th and 5th fetter. He shared with me his experience and at the end of our conversation he looked at me and said "you can do this. And it's absolutely worth it".

So the point of all of this, to encourage you and to say that even though it may feel like you're treading in unknown territory and it may be anxiety-provoking. So, you can do this and it is worth it!

All of that being said, I think it is important before we continue to come back and review some basic LU guidelines. For your own progress, when you are responding to the questions and looking, please put aside all of your beliefs, anything you have learned, any and all books, videos, teachers, etc etc. You can engage with these as much as you want outside of this inquiry. But no matter how great another spiritual practice may be, it will very likely only make this process harder.

Not being able to find an answer to one of my questions is a perfect answer. "I don't know" in many cases is an excellent sign - even if it doesn't seem like it at first. Seeing through beliefs can feel uncomfortable and strange at first but again, I can only tell you that this is absolutely worth it and the only thing you risk is getting in touch with life as it is actually happening, beyond any beliefs.

So let me know when you're ready and we can start up again. Although you may not like it, I would like to pick up with the inquiry into the mind.

Wishing you a lovely day,
Wesley

Hello Wesley,

And thanks you, I feel such gratitude, for you have become a fully fleshed human being to me. Before, the absence of any personal detail generated an unease and growing feeling of : “am I talking to a robot?, “or perhaps to someone so introverted and kept to himself that could not have the time or inclination to express his humanity?”

I feel relieved that you are made of flesh and blood like everyone else.

Specially glad about the detail of your personal odyssey towards ‘enlightenment’

I am an order member from where Satyadhana used to belong! and my best friend in the order Triratna did all the fetters with him, and encouraged me to start LU! but I wasn’t sure; I wanted to start straight away with someone someone like Satyadhana; all the fetters!! heheheh!

I didn’t know when I started this enquiry that I had such resistant views. I know I am a very determined woman who lead a very determined life searching for where I am now: it took enormous effort and letting go of great suffering.

Before Buddhism I fought against a dictatorship and was tortured and prosecuted, turned away from institutionalised religion, and at the sight of any other religion I was skeptical and judgemental.

One day meditating on my own intuition, I came across a Buddhist book, and then this tradition, and after many years of skepticism towards it all, I had a vision and decided to study what the Buddha had said; 4 years of study on my own accord, and some 80 retreats and constant inwardly questioning and reflexion on my own accord, then after 16 years I got ordained with the name of Vijayagita: “The song of Victory”, thus Victoria.

I have experienced frequent higher levels of consciousness in meditation and outside mediation which are equanimous, and beyond; the formless jhanas where there is no body, time, space, senses, mind, me, or anything that I perceive as reality as I write. Insights that cancel all perceptions and are states of being simply, but they are short lived lasting from a week to a month.

All in all, I am pretty happy for what I have done with my life so far; from loveless beginnings, violence, fascism, barely university to personal freedom in a Buddhist life, which I don’t find perfect, of course not! same with the Triratna tradition, but there are way more pluses than minuses for me. It gives me a context for practice; anything my heart desire turns to, like LU, in a community bases on spiritual friendship like I never thought existed.

So I am not someone who is has just come across some books or youtube and found the idea liberation, but I could be, for the difficulty that I find in letting go!!! in fact, perhaps if I was new to the path of liberation I wouldn’t have such fixed views as to what “I think is best”.

So here I am ready to re engage with enquiry, I am very determined to break through, but, beware, also very attached to my views :(

Relieved and grateful for this rich interaction,

Victoria

Hello Victoria,

And thanks you, I feel such gratitude, for you have become a fully fleshed human being to me. Before, the absence of any personal detail generated an unease and growing feeling of : “am I talking to a robot?, “or perhaps to someone so introverted and kept to himself that could not have the time or inclination to express his humanity?”

Yes yes! Real human being here :).

I am an order member from where Satyadhana used to belong! and my best friend in the order Triratna did all the fetters with him, and encouraged me to start LU! but I wasn’t sure; I wanted to start straight away with someone someone like Satyadhana; all the fetters!! heheheh!

Oh very cool! It’s a small world. Well so I believe even Satyadhana first did Liberation Unleashed, and he saw how effective the method was and just applied the same approach to the remaining fetters. So you can certainly find someone who guides for the other fetters to guide you through the first 2, but I will be honest I don’t know how much of a difference that would make. I myself am at least aware of the guiding for the 4th and 5th fetter. And in any case, I myself had 2 guides, both of which were excellent and had never done anything with further fetters (not at that time at least as I believe the 10 fetters group was very recent).

And wow, thank you for sharing everything you have been through. I cannot imagine, you have certainly lived through a lot. And again, no matter your love for Buddhism or personal / religious views, this inquiry is not going to take anything away from you. What is of value to you will continue to have value for you, and beliefs that are no longer of value to you will likely just fade away. But in general, there is a loosening in the attachment to beliefs (which if I remember is something to do with the 1st fetter(attachment is to ritual and rites no?).

So here I am ready to re engage with enquiry, I am very determined to break through, but, beware, also very attached to my views :(

That’s ok to be attached to them. In order for this inquiry to be effective however, I would like for you to sort of make an agreement with yourself that you will try your best to put your beliefs aside while responding to the questions. If it’s scary, just remember that your beliefs are not going to go anywhere.

When you walk into the LU building, you just drop off your baggage, your beliefs and come in as a blank canvas, knowing that all of that will be waiting for you when you leave the building (the building being the time that you inquire and answer the questions.

In other words : avoid answering from beliefs, from what you have learned and answer simply from what you observe from looking in the moment.

So if you’re ready let’s start again with this question :

What is “I” to you? When you use the word “I” or “me” in language, what does it refer to??

Have a lovely day,
Wesley