Simple not Simple

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

there is an underlying belief that the feeling of equanimity is required as proof of doubtless-ness and selfless-ness

These are also just thoughts.
Nothing is permanent. Not even equanimity. ..and proof of what? There is no gate. There is no fixed point in anyone's life where we can say that they are awake. There is life-ing. Ever-changing experiencing. ..and there are ever-changing interpretations from an ever-changing perspective.
We have to imagine that we know something to say that it's true. Is it the same for doubt?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

We have to imagine that we know something to say that it's true. Is it the same for doubt?

Yes it's the same for doubt.And yes the imagination ,the knowing thoughts. Identifing with thoughts and with sensations and thinking they belong to a me.The me comes and goes.When the me appears,each time it comes with more intensity of identifications with thoughts ,more intensity of identification with bodily sensations ,like the me-ness is really desperate to cling on...when the me is not there effortlessness,the identifying stops and this occurs without effort ...this happens usually after a very strong bout of identifying has occurred........back and forth wash and dry .The cycle usually starts up (but not always)when engaging with other people who are agitated .all good when I am with them no matter what their behaviour or states are...but then afterwards when alone.. an avalanche of me thoughts that can be described as extremely uncomfortable.This also can happen in the dream state...fine in the dream state with whatever occurs wake up ...thoughts start appearing after a bit,remembrance of dream....and wash cycle may happen.I had an experience 2 days ago while watching a film....crying intensely then mixed laughing and crying and then just laughing and complete aha-ness for a spell.........then thought.."this is not going to last there is more wash cycle coming". So basically just get used to it?The cycle?Go with it ?

Thank you

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

The me comes and goes.

Can you give more detail on this?

Identifing with thoughts and with sensations and thinking they belong to a me.

What is the feeling/sensation part of identifying?

.when the me is not there

How do you know that it's not there?

then thought.."this is not going to last...

Why are some thoughts more believable than others?
To engage with a thought stream, what about the thoughts that makes this happen?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

Can you give more detail on this?

The thought/ feelings that are very subtle interpretations of what is. , subtle interpretations that aren’t noticed, which create the belief of a separate controller.

What is the feeling/sensation part of identifying

Contracting pressure between the ears.Internal tones different pitches or octaves.Muscle contractions and density

How do you know that it's not there

When the me-ness is not. No attachment or ownership to any thoughts actions happenings appearances no positive nor negative ..Just is-ness nowness, thoughts induce laughing or no reaction. No desire to push pull with thoughts

Why are some thoughts more believable than others?

The only way I find of describing this is some thoughts have an interpretation that almost seems built in to the particular thought. A thought underneath a thought which engages the controller push pull cluster, the big no “I”don’t want this thought,which is subtle

To engage with a thought stream, what about the thoughts that makes this happen?

a thought appears. Other thoughts appear,no engagment or examination,just “experiencing”...somehow a thought then appears that has an almost density and weight to it ,as this is the only way I am finding at the moment to describe it,and then the thought is interpreted as reality or experience.

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Judi,

The thought/ feelings that are very subtle interpretations of what is. , subtle interpretations that aren’t noticed, which create the belief of a separate controller.

Am I getting you correctly? The thought/feeling creates a belief.
i presume that there are thoughts that are confirmed by the interpretation that overlays the sensation (feelings)?
..and this happens without you being aware of it?

Contracting pressure between the ears.Internal tones different pitches or octaves.Muscle contractions and density

So how do these sensations become identifying?

When the me-ness is not. No attachment or ownership to any thoughts actions happenings appearances no positive nor negative ..Just is-ness nowness, thoughts induce laughing or no reaction. No desire to push pull with thoughts

So, is it accurate to say that when this (absence) is not there, then there is the presumption that selfing is happening?

some thoughts have an interpretation that almost seems built in to the particular thought. A thought underneath a thought

Hmm, this is big. A believable thought is believable because another thought says so. i might be jumping a bit here because you aren't saying anything about a second thought. What is the "built-in" aspect of a thought?

somehow a thought then appears that has an almost density and weight to it ,as this is the only way I am finding at the moment Is to describe it,and then the thought is interpreted as reality or experience.

The interpretation (of reality...) done by thought?

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hello Vince

i presume that there are thoughts that are confirmed by the interpretation that overlays the sensation (feelings)?
..and this happens without you being aware of it?

Yes that's a good way of putting it."An interpretation that overlays a sensation." And I assume I am not aware of it because then 'I' go into the rabbit hole,and then it seems through thought efforts I get out of the rabbit hole enough to at least be neutral....when I do notice thoughts or interpretations( apparently these are the same thing) there is no attachment to them.Last night it was discussed that sensations are not related to thought in any way,I suppose I am still attaching thoughts to sensations and the overlay happens.But since I am not really doing any of this the efforting of all these processes seems to continue the thoughts of a separate self efforting.

So how do these sensations become identifying?

These sensations are continuous in the waking state.

So, is it accurate to say that when this (absence) is not there, then there is the presumption that selfing is happening?

Yes it is a presumption.

Hmm, this is big. A believable thought is believable because another thought says so. i might be jumping a bit here because you aren't saying anything about a second thought. What is the "built-in" aspect of a thought?

I suppose when I look at the process,and again it may be the assumption that sensation is related to a thought,when the sensation occurs after a thought,the sensation is sensed and the previous thought seems to have some sort of realness to it...and the next thought appears as a continuation of the first thought,I examined the sensations that seem to be related to the thoughts that appeared,I stayed with the sensation and there was then a fear thought label.

The interpretation (of reality...) done by thought?

Any overlay or filter on what is.When selfing is not there,there was never any effort or practice or process efforted.It just happens and then after awhile,sometimes longer or shorter periods,It is a thought/belief that says efforting has started again or to be again perceiving through a filter because the selfing cycle is noticed and attachment /identifying is occuring.

thanks


love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

,I suppose I am still attaching thoughts to sensations

You might consider that a sensation with a story attached is a feeling (emotion?)
If it's right (and it is) that a sensation contains no information, the only evidence of what it's about is that thought story.
...and given that thoughts seem to align with previous experience (conditioning) they will always have the same nature (flavor)
Does this sound feasible?

the efforting of all these processes seems to continue the thoughts of a separate self efforting.

If we say "do noticing without efforting." how do we handle the inbuilt contradiction? (how do we do not doing without doing?)
Well, we don't do anything. Noticing happens (or not)
Intent (if it arises) may have some influence on it. (or not) So if noticing happens then celebrate it. If it doesn't then iwe aren't even aware of it, so nothing to do.
If it happens later, great. It doesn't matter how much later. If it is noticed, then celebrate.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince

You might consider that a sensation with a story attached is a feeling (emotion?)

Yes

If it's right (and it is) that a sensation contains no information, the only evidence of what it's about is that thought story.

Yes. The thought stories,images or snap shots arise loaded with a varity of conditioned thoughts :disappointment,or not that one again and other various conditioned thoughts which expand into comparison thoughts like :this is not acceptable behaviour from others,the situation is a problem needing resolution,something needs to be done , this is happening to a me because sensations with familiar labels arise.Sensations and actions labeled crying or tension are occuring in that current experience.Then deductive thoughts arise of a future solution,thoughts seeking for thought answers.Such as"I" can change my behaviour or responses and "I " can change the current or future experiences.The seeking change cycle engaged and identified with.Acceptance is remembered along side with doubt thoughts containing "actions must be taken because non doing is dangerous.So then non action appears as a solution.Acceptance of the moment appears.. and then action is taken again if the thought cycles continue: meditate,breath ,quietude.There is still the ownwership label of doership with intent attached to outcomes but this subsides.It appears helpful to reduce thought stories to one word labels.Simplify each of the stories to a word.Less charge.
.

..and given that thoughts seem to align with previous experience (conditioning) they will always have the same nature (flavor)
Does this sound feasible?

Yes...strong sensations arise in the current moment very quickly after a few thoughts arise.This is noticed.Waves of conditioning thoughts arise ,waves of familar sensations arise then,these conditioned responses arise in the current experience but the conditioned response is what it is in the current experience...seeing the what is-ness doesn't always change the flavor or content and why should it,it's just happening.Acceptance ,allowing,asking what it is that actually wants a change comes ..then, ahh back to now or" I dont want this,where is the escape hatch".This search for an escape hatch may stem from the conditioned thoughts about permanence,time,desire/aversion and thoughts that evidence is required through experiences.

Thanks


love

Judi

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,
Just adding the last question which I didn't include in my previous response.

If we say "do noticing without efforting." how do we handle the inbuilt contradiction? (how do we do not doing without doing?)
Well, we don't do anything. Noticing happens (or not)
Intent (if it arises) may have some influence on it. (or not) So if noticing happens then celebrate it. If it doesn't then iwe aren't even aware of it, so nothing to do.
If it happens later, great. It doesn't matter how much later. If it is noticed, then celebrate.

Yes currently celebrating after reading this.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Judi,

The thought stories,images or snap shots arise loaded with a varity of conditioned thoughts

Ok, what those thoughts are about is irrelevant. The only thing that you are interested in is if they are seen to be happening. (ala my last post) If they are not seen, then there is nothing to do. If they are seen, then celebrate the recognition.
Have no opinions (judgements) about the content of the thoughts (what they were about)
If an opinion does arise, then have no opinion about that.
If an opinion is seen to arise, then celebrate the recognition.
These pesky thoughts need to be consigned to the backwaters of your mind. Do NOT engage with them.
If you discover that you have engaged, then celebrate the discovery.

It appears helpful to reduce thought stories to one word labels.Simplify each of the stories to a word.Less charge.

Presumably it's the "charge" that get the engagement happening. That sucks you into being lost in the stories. So less charge makes it easier to take the step back out of the involvement and see what is happening?
This appears to be about the future, when a goal is attained, but it isn't.
It's actually about being present. Things will change in the future (or not) but that is a side affect. Not our main game.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

These pesky thoughts need to be consigned to the backwaters of your mind. Do NOT engage with them.

so thought is an experience and an experience is a sensation,no?.So thought is also a sensation..So thinking about a thoughts content is the same as looking at other sensations and thinking about the content of a sensation? In other words we stop looking for a reason for or a label for a body sensation so we stop looking for a reason for or a label for a thought?

So less charge makes it easier to take the step back out of the involvement and see what is happening?

reducing a thought to one word takes the story out and there is just the word.The word sort of abbreviates the content of a thought and can then be more easily seen as a concept/belief and can be more like an itch that doesn’t need scratching.

This appears to be about the future, when a goal is attained, but it isn't.

I’m not sure I understand this. Do you mean abbreviating thoughts is about the future or this as in the “process” seems to be about the future and a goal attained. If you mean reaching goals by doing things?there is still the expectation of the “not needing to know state” being permanent and the non doer-ness being permanent .

It's actually about being present. Things will change in the future (or not) but that is a side affect. Not our main game.

Yes being present sometimes appears as a want or need when I think I am not in the present because of doubts about obtaining the big permanent yes.The I was… now I’m not …then I was… now I’m not …doubting and then not…projecting then not…Looking for the side effect of being present rather than just being present ….seems like complaining at the moment which is silly.

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Judi,

so thought is an experience and an experience is a sensation,no?

This is an interesting one. We certainly experience the fact of having a thought, but what the thought is about is conceptual.
I find it useful to consider mind as the sixth sense (organ) because we respond to it in the same way that we respond to stimulation of the other five senses.
What Is the common response to any sensory stimulation?
After the input of a sound or touch (etc) there is usually a thought story that explains it and gives it meaning.
..and we respond to stories.
In the case of that sixth sense (mind) although the primary stimulation is thought, it is still usually followed by stories. So most peoples day consists of experience/story/response (experience)/story/... repeant until deep sleep happens/start on waking. (this is actual reincarnation)
There will be sensory stimulation amongst this, but mostly will go unnoticed (unless it's really big)
When you 'wake up' the sensory stimulation will be noticed much more. The stories will be aborted as soon as they are noticed and they will happen less. Even only occasionally. Their nature will also change. Useful stories will told, but even they will be held lightly.

This appears to be about the future, when a goal is attained, but it isn't.

I’m not sure I understand this.

i mean that talking about these things like they are an end goal misses the point. What we are looking to evoke with these pointers is simply a coming home. A return to THIS. NOW. HERE. THIS.
We don't have to discuss anything. All of these words are simply something that happens while we are not yet ready to 'wake up'.

Yes being present sometimes appears as a want or need when I think I am not in the present because of...

You are always in the present. It just sometimes appears differently because we are lost in stories. ..but however far out the story, it is still THIS.

With love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

What Is the common response to any sensory stimulation

A conceptual label … or comment. There are no stories when sensing is more “intense” but labels and questions can arise like “this is different” or “the sensation is moving” or “ Is this what a heart attack is like?(without fear thoughts)When a story arises and is starting to be identified with and sensations appear…I find it more useful to stay with the sensation rather then digging deeper into the story ( i.e what is the root thought under the story ) The fetter work seems to require root finding… which then reveals even older stories and then require examination and inquiry … Not very keen on this at the moment. Been told before this is by passing or avoidance… face the thought monsters.Is it required ?

All of these words are simply something that happens while we are not yet ready to 'wake up'.

Some words get in the way other words don’t seem to get in the way. Like when you mentioned useful stories or words held lightly, this is a helpful confirmation…

Thanks

love

Judi

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Judi,

What Is the common response to any sensory stimulation

A conceptual label … or comment.

Yes, exactly, and then we respond to that story (label/comment)
..but now we move onto a more subtle 'level'. If those stories are only descriptive and if they are seen to be happening and if they are held lightly - that is not seriously engaged with, then the response to them is more curiosity.

I find it more useful to stay with the sensation rather then digging deeper into the story ( i.e what is the root thought under the story ) The fetter work seems to require root finding… which then reveals even older stories and then require examination and inquiry … Not very keen on this at the moment. Been told before this is by passing or avoidance… face the thought monsters.Is it required ?

Yes, absolutely. We definitely don't need to dig out the origin. Just knowing that 'something' is there is enough.
As long as (this more subtle 'level' again) we don't 'bypass'. While ever we are triggered, there is still 'something' there.

with love

vince

[Mimimimi]

Hi Vince,

If those stories are only descriptive and if they are seen to be happening and if they are held lightly - that is not seriously engaged with, then the response to them is more curiosity.

Yes…the is there content in any thought question arises ala Jeff’s koan.

As long as (this more subtle 'level' again) we don't 'bypass'. While ever we are triggered, there is still 'something' there.

Something” meaning a thought based reaction? rather than just descriptive sensing?

Thanks

love

Judi