Waking up to living non dual

[Julesdickson]

How is the movement controlled?

I can’t find a reason how the movement is controlled besides the movement controlling the movement. I don’t detect any thought of any authoritative will while the back and forth movement is happening.

Does a thought control it?

No thought is not controlling it.

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
There is no controller or entity that is being located while doing this exercise. It seems like there is no will to turn the hand over except for the movement itself. It seems automatic so I’m not sure how it’s doing that. But it seems to be a process that doesn’t need any jurisdiction.

Can you please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you share more details about it? How did it come to be?

Me and my partner decided to get married. It came to be because we love each other and live in different countries so decided it would be best to get married.

Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

Considering the different conditions it is obvious to notice that if some of them were different than the outcome would also be different. For example if we were under age to get married we would be able to perhaps if we lived in the same country we wouldn’t. And other factors like if we never met or were in such a place at such a time, we also wouldn’t be getting married now.

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Many of the conditions if not most of them were completely out of my control. The ones according to thought that were in my control were to agree to getting married because ultimately I could have said no and just lived my life alone in Canada. But the entire Sequence of events, experiences and emotions that influenced my yes we’re out of my control.

Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately?

Sight and sensation do appear simultaneously. I can’t find a way to separate the two while they’re happening at the same time. No they do not appear separately.

Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

No they do not depend on each other both can exist without the other. I don’t know if I can sense something specific that links them together. But I can notice that in a way they are linked together, but somehow without authority. Maybe it is just experience that likes them together. Because the two are happening at the same time. Experiencing links them together

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
Very good!!

Me and my partner decided to get married. It came to be because we love each other and live in different countries so decided it would be best to get married.

Congratulations on your new journey together!!!

Many of the conditions if not most of them were completely out of my control. The ones according to thought that were in my control were to agree to getting married because ultimately I could have said no and just lived my life alone in Canada. But the entire Sequence of events, experiences and emotions that influenced my yes we’re out of my control.

Great! I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with actions based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Ultimately, as you said, when you check your DE, there is no “I”/entity that makes a decision and there are no causes and effects (just stories). It’s just THIS/whatever is happening.

No they do not depend on each other both can exist without the other. I don’t know if I can sense something specific that links them together. But I can notice that in a way they are linked together, but somehow without authority. Maybe it is just experience that likes them together. Because the two are happening at the same time. Experiencing links them together

Yes! We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experience. Mind tells us that they are different things. In DE, though, it is seen as one inseparable experience (THIS/whatever is happening). By the way, senses can affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM )
Anyway, the point of this exercise was to notice the totality of experience.

I just want to make sure that is clear… When you say that experiencing links them together, can you separate the experiencing from seeing, sensing, or hearing? Are there two - experiencing and seeing - or just one inseparable experiencing, no matter which aspect of experiencing is present (i.e. seeing, hearing, etc)?

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Deneb

Yes I can see that unchecked beliefs create emotions that make stories stickier. More and more belief are coming to the surface and I’ve been able to see them for what they are. It has been very uncomfortable lately. All week has been very uncomfortable, all this beliefs have been coming very strongly and creating all kind of stories. The positive thing is that I been able to just let them be and see them for what they are for the most part, but sometimes it has been very intense.
I been feeling a lot of fear, which I think prevents deeper beliefs to come to the surface.

When fear appears, it just shows that there are areas that have not been examined and need to be explored with DE. Peace eventually comes with not minding what happens. When “uncomfortable” experiences appear, there are usually thoughts how things should be different and the unpleasant should not be here. But these are just thoughts. Staying with the uncomfortable, welcoming it, eventually changes the belief and the story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without a "me" and the fear that something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick (to form an identity). Whatever happens feels okay.

Doubt is a thought and very sneaky. Lately there have been thoughts like this: “Maybe I will never wake up”. Thoughts of doubt have intensified, but also inquiry into their nature has intensified to so even thought they are uncomfortable they are helping with the inquiry.

You see, doubt is another way of resisting and protecting the imaginary self. Why is something, that is seen as lie, still believed? When you have two opposing views you have to keep checking their validity. When new thoughts appear they either stick the old thoughts (fit with the beliefs like puzzle pieces) or not – what we call confirmation bias. Conformation bias saves time and energy with discarding new ideas that do not fit with the rest. DE, though, checks with the senses what truly is happening. It might seem that it involves effort but is there anybody that is exercising this effort or is it just happening on its own – effortless effort?

Doubt is mostly unchecked beliefs that are coming to the surface to be examined. So, the antidote for doubt is just more LOOKING :)! That means question everything you are certain about. It may take a few months to settle in, but everyone is different, so there is no way to know how long it will take for everything to be re-examined. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it’s gentle, but there is no finish line, only falling deeper and deeper into peace. Looking is the tool that has to be used over and over again. All this old conditioning has to be seen for what it is. It wasn’t created in a day so it will take time to re-examine all of it. The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself.

BUT!!! What is there to wake up – another belief that needs to be busted. Is there an expectation for fireworks? Remember, when realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; as you can see it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. So is there still seeking?

Is there anything specific you want to explore?
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules
I'm so sorry. I posted a reply to another client on your thread. Please ignore and answer the previous reply - the one that is addressed to you.
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

When you say that experiencing links them together, can you separate the experiencing from seeing, sensing, or hearing? Are there two - experiencing and seeing - or just one inseparable experiencing, no matter which aspect of experiencing is present (i.e. seeing, hearing, etc)?

No there is just one experiencing, seeing or hearing or sensing, etc. I know this because it’s impossible to separate them.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No not that I can find

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

No it’s just the thought that creates that division.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

There is no inside or outside. Or I guess I could also feel like there is both but are not different or separate, still.

Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

There is no owner of being. There is just being. There are also no others just the idea or thought of others. There is no I in others, if there was it would just be my mental fabrication. In DE and reality there is no “I” in others.

Is there a “you”?

And no there is no me either, it’s also a thought and an idea. But one that really really hard to drop. It’s the hardest to drop when I feel fear and then I try to let it go. And as soon as there is an I trying to let go then I feel the tension in my body of identifying with a me again. But when I can I just be.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

There is no inside or outside. Or I guess I could also feel like there is both but are not different or separate, still.

Yes!! To have ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ you need a reference point/a center. The same goes for ‘up’ and ‘down’, ‘left’ and ‘right’ – they are just labels. Only thought content can separate seeing into things through labelling them and “place” them on the 'right' or 'left' of an illusionary “I”, while all there is, is just seeing.

And no there is no me either, it’s also a thought and an idea. But one that really really hard to drop. It’s the hardest to drop when I feel fear and then I try to let it go. And as soon as there is an I trying to let go then I feel the tension in my body of identifying with a me again. But when I can I just be.

What identifies with the “I”- thought? What finds it hard to drop? What is a “tension in MY body” (can you spot the belief)? It also seems that there is an expectation that there will be no thoughts of ‘me’ after the inquiry. If you are not the thinker (and do not exist in the first place), then how can you stop them from appearing? Did you make them appear? How exactly do you “believe”/”not believe” (drop/not drop) the thoughts? Please describe the action of dropping the thought.
If “I” is a thought, can thoughts do things? Can thoughts believe other thoughts? Some sequences come almost inseparable because they’ve been fired together for a long time - what we call beliefs. There are beliefs/thoughts but is there believing, or just thinking? How is the ‘believing’ different from thoughts just appearing and disappearing? Can thoughts do anything else but describing/ conceptualising?

Fear, on the other hand, just points to thought content that hasn’t been checked yet. As you know already fear is sensation + thought. Separated from the thoughts and images that are attached to it, all that is there is raw sensation. Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’. Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or BEHIND the sensation that is fearful? Now look at the thought that comes with it. Can you find anyone/anything in the WORD ‘fear’ that is fearful? Do you see an entity attached to the sensation and the thought? What makes the sensation or the thought a "me"?
Once you are at just raw sensation without the thoughts, allow the sensation all the space it needs without pushing it aside or judging it (or trying to let it go). Do you have any control over the sensation, or do they come and then go on their own? How can you let them go? And, while you are “there” look at what the thought is trying to protect. Is there anything that needs protecting?
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

What identifies with the “I”- thought? What finds it hard to drop? What is a “tension in MY body” (can you spot the belief)?

Thoughts identify with the I, it feel like the thinking finds it hard to drop, or rather thought try’s to drop it when it’s best to just do nothing. I guess in that moment I am identifying that I am my body because I feel the body tensing and clenching. when there’s physical things happening to the body it’s easy to identify with it, but upon deeper investigation I can see that this is empty sometimes thinking drops itself of course, without any authority.

It also seems that there is an expectation that there will be no thoughts of ‘me’ after the inquiry. If you are not the thinker (and do not exist in the first place), then how can you stop them from appearing? Did you make them appear? How exactly do you “believe”/”not believe” (drop/not drop) the thoughts? Please describe the action of dropping the thought.

There’s no dropping thought, when thinking stops it just sort of lets go of itself there’s no thinking process in which it lets go of. There is no way that I believe or don’t believe drop/hold onto thoughts, because there’s definitely nothing to hold onto them with. And when they seem to drop away I guess it’s more true to say that thoughts just stop thinking. There is absolutely no action to dropping a thought which I guess means nothing is happening for that to happen.

If “I” is a thought, can thoughts do things? Can thoughts believe other thoughts?

I is just a thoughts and I guess the only thing I thought can do is create another thought. But I thought cannot stop at self because then that’s just more thinking.

There are beliefs/thoughts but is there believing, or just thinking? How is the ‘believing’ different from thoughts just appearing and disappearing? Can thoughts do anything else but describing/ conceptualising?

There is just thinking, believing is not different from thinking it’s just something that appears in the realm of thinking. Thoughts can only describe and conceptualize. Because when I investigate into direct experience I can see that thoughts cannot sense and thoughts cannot feel they can only describe feelings and create ideas and beliefs which is in the realm of conceptualizing.

Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or BEHIND the sensation that is fearful?

No I can’t find anyone behind the sensation or in the sensation when I actually look to find something there. I mean for a while I can say I’m scared, it’s me that scared, I’m the one that scared but then I can’t hold that up for so long because when I start asking if there’s a me who is scared it stops making sense because there’s not.

Can you find anyone/anything in the WORD ‘fear’ that is fearful? Do you see an entity attached to the sensation and the thought? What makes the sensation or the thought a "me"?

No there is no one in the word fear that is fearful. There is no one that is attached to the sensation in the thought. What makes the sensation or the thought a me is just the thought or the Belief that sensation or thought is what makes me a me. There is nothing grounded and actually experience the proof sensation or thought is “me”.

Do you have any control over the sensation, or do they come and then go on their own? How can you let them go? And, while you are “there” look at what the thought is trying to protect. Is there anything that needs protecting?

I don’t have any control over the sensation they do just come and go on their own. When I let them come and go on their own it is much more natural. I can’t let them go, I know that because I tried it a lot just for fun and it doesn’t work when there’s an I trying to let something go. Ultimately there is nothing that needs protecting.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

Thoughts identify with the I, it feel like the thinking finds it hard to drop, or rather thought try’s to drop it when it’s best to just do nothing.

I is just a thoughts and I guess the only thing I thought can do is create another thought. But I thought cannot stop at self because then that’s just more thinking.

Ask again, can a thought do anything - create another thought, think, drop thinking? Is there thoughts and thinking, or just thinking? Is it possible that there simply is/isn’t thinking present like on/off switch? Does thought content influence the presence of thinking, or it just happens on its own? Thought does not think, it only passes by effortlessly, it cannot do anything in the same way as clouds cannot do anything to the sky. They are part of the scenery, but clouds do not attach to the sky. Can you see that?
Again, does cause and effect exist outside of thought content (in DE)?

I guess in that moment I am identifying that I am my body because I feel the body tensing and clenching. when there’s physical things happening to the body it’s easy to identify with it, but upon deeper investigation I can see that this is empty sometimes thinking drops itself of course, without any authority.

What makes a sensation yours? Does sensing have an owner? Does it need an owner to happen? Is the sensing personal? Notice: I breathe or breathing happens. If “I” is just a thought, how can it breathe? How can a thought own anything? You have to question all these old beliefs anytime they appear, and you do that by LOOKING. Looking is your new best friend :)
Otherwise, how is life these days? Is there still seeking? Is there anything else that you want to explore – time, world, space, cause and effect, anything else?
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

Ask again, can a thought do anything - create another thought, think, drop thinking? Is there thoughts and thinking, or just thinking? Is it possible that there simply is/isn’t thinking present like on/off switch? Does thought content influence the presence of thinking, or it just happens on its own?

There is just thinking. Yes it’s exactly like that, it’s just on and off without any authority. But it’s not thought it’s all just thinking. Thinking is not influenced by thought content because it’s still just thinking no matter what’s the thought content is.
It does just happen on its own I can see that.

Can you see that?
Again, does cause and effect exist outside of thought content (in DE)?

Yes I can see that, how thoughts are like clouds they just pass through but they are not stuck in the sky. Cause and effect do not exist outside of content of thought and direct experience. Because that wouldn’t be possible.

What makes a sensation yours? Does sensing have an owner? Does it need an owner to happen? Is the sensing personal? Notice: I breathe or breathing happens. If “I” is just a thought, how can it breathe? How can a thought own anything?

Nothing can make a sensation mine because in DE there could truly only be sensing. It does not need an owner, sensing naturally happens as it needs to. All that needs to be present for sensing to sense is sensing. Breathing just happens a the I is un-involved in the process. I thought cannot own anything, it’s transient and there’s no one for it to belong too. Thinking can only be thinking when it’s thinking.

Otherwise, how is life these days? Is there still seeking? Is there anything else that you want to explore – time, world, space, cause and effect, anything else?

There’s no seeking, well if there is it just sort of fizzles out on its own somehow because it just stops making sense.

I have a question. Because how we are speaking in these conversations was naturally where I was perceiving things and then it went away a bit because I had some teachers and friends telling me something along the lines of, the non-dharma Dharma needs to be deconstructed, and that I need to end up back where I started because if I keep deconstructing useful beliefs then I’m just deconstructing everything in life back into nothingness and it’s not healthy. So I think my next question would be about world. About useful concepts people create in the world and the need for constructing beliefs and ideas.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

There’s no seeking, well if there is it just sort of fizzles out on its own somehow because it just stops making sense.

Awesome stuff!

I have a question. Because how we are speaking in these conversations was naturally where I was perceiving things and then it went away a bit because I had some teachers and friends telling me something along the lines of, the non-dharma Dharma needs to be deconstructed, and that I need to end up back where I started because if I keep deconstructing useful beliefs then I’m just deconstructing everything in life back into nothingness and it’s not healthy. So I think my next question would be about world. About useful concepts people create in the world and the need for constructing beliefs and ideas.

You see, thoughts just point to experiencing, give it meaning that can be passed. Thus, language is “useful”. So, you will continue to use the same language, using pronouns, nouns, etc. but their empty illusory nature is seen. There is an old saying in Zen: “In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.” What do you think it means?

Also, what/who deconstructs beliefs? Are you doing the deconstructing or it happens on its own effortlessly? In order to deconstruct thoughts, there has to be someone outside of thoughts, who has volition and the ability to change them. So ‘deconstructing thoughts’ is about separation and a belief in an agency with free will. Are there beliefs to be deconstructed or only thinking? Are you the one doing the thinking? Can you control the thinking? Can you change the thinking? Can you deconstruct its content? Or is it all another story about the resposibilities of an "enlightened self"? What is in danger (i.e. not healthy)? To whom is this a problem? LOOK!

Thirdly, is there such thing as “nothingness”? There is always THIS. How can THIS be nothing? Where can nothingness exist and how can it be experienced? Who experiences nothingness? What is a “world”? I’m sure you’d agree that the "world" is a creation of language, and words are the building blocks that create the story about it, give THIS a meaning. Emptiness does not mean nothingness. Meaning isn’t meaningless but empty. There is a huge difference here. You have some Buddhist background so I’m sure you’ve heard “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”. 'Emptiness' is a pointer to mark a distinction between the way things appear to be and the way they actually are – the illusion. The illusion is that there are selves that are separate from the THIS / life / existence, and each isolated self is living their life in a world, which this assumed self is separate from. But in reality, there is only existence, whatever is happening right now. There are no parts, no fragments, there is only undivided existence / life / what IS/THIS. Reality is very simple. Once you see this, you will stop endlessly frustrating yourself by trying to figure out how things are. Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are and how things should be?

Truth or reality is not an idea or a belief. It cannot be grasped by thoughts. It does not need and it is impossible to be understood by the intellect/thoughts. It is inconceivable, ungraspable. And yet, it can be directly experienced.
Is this clear? Or do you need more pointers?
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

What do you think it means?

It means at first it just is what it is, as it seen. Then it feels like you just found out something new and for some reason now the whole thing seems like it is different. But in the end it just ends up being exactly as it always has been without any addition or things on top. It is clear to see that it actually really just is what it is. Its like that middle part is the "I" trying to make a story or deeper meaning out of whats there, but the deepest truest meaning is just receiving reality as it is, unfiltered.

Also, what/who deconstructs beliefs? Are you doing the deconstructing or it happens on its own effortlessly?

When the question is asked the deconstructing happens on its own, because the Only way to answer these things is truthfully, which means it has to be known in DE. No one deconstructs a belief, a belief just sort of falls apart upon closer inspection...or i guess a better way to say is in AE.

In order to deconstruct thoughts, there has to be someone outside of thoughts, who has volition and the ability to change them. So ‘deconstructing thoughts’ is about separation and a belief in an agency with free will. Are there beliefs to be deconstructed or only thinking? Are you the one doing the thinking? Can you control the thinking? Can you change the thinking? Can you deconstruct its content? Or is it all another story about the responsibilities of an "enlightened self"? What is in danger (i.e. not healthy)? To whom is this a problem?

There are no beliefs to be deconstructed, in AE there is only thinking. In thinking there is nothing to deconstruct or nothing to do. No "I" is doing any thinking, only thinking. It can not be controlled. Okay this is what i'm seeing and maybe where i'm stuck...When thinking is happening it is a full and total experience. So, if i think of an orange ball then i think of a blue ball, there was no I or me involved in that process. each thought arose and was known on its own in AE, then after it just was dropped on its own.

So when i do inquiry or any other type of fun thinking, i can really see that in each moment there is no authority to the thinking, but then i wonder how are there thoughts? and you will say "is there thoughts or only thinking?" and i will say, obviously there is only thinking. but I keep wondering how i'm able to wonder and how i can think about my cat and then my fiance and then the Sea if there is no place for them so arise from. People say often you are not the clouds in the sky but the sky its self. the awareness in which the thoughts apear. but we talked about awareness in the beginning and broke that down pretty fast as a belief. So now i'm just seeing how there is only thinking in DE only Being in DE and whatever arises in DE is just that as it is. no story in-front behind or on top of it. reality just is as it is in DE. But there is still something that not making sense about thinking and how i can think for an hour about a fiction story i'm writing. So to the question can i control thinking and change thinking. I feel like no, because that makes sense right away when i ask and see whats true but then that answer doesn't really add up fully and then doesn't make complete sense, so then I also think yes.

Can you deconstruct its content? Or is it all another story about the responsibilities of an "enlightened self"? What is in danger (i.e. not healthy)? To whom is this a problem?

No I cannot deconstruct its content, I can inquire with questions but that only gets me so far, the best way to deconstruct beliefs is just to stop. Ya theres nothing in danger, because there is no thing that is in danger and no one for this to effect negatively in anyway. I already feel this and i can still clearly see this now.

Thirdly, is there such thing as “nothingness”? There is always THIS. How can THIS be nothing? Where can nothingness exist and how can it be experienced? Who experiences nothingness? What is a “world”?

Ya there IS only this, whatever it is, however its manifesting in the moment. Its not nothing, its this. I don't know how nothingness can exist because i dont think i have experienced that. i'm not sure who experiences it, maybe someone, i hear people on youtube say this and even friends say this. I don't know what a world is, i know what this moment is as it arises. But there probably is a world but i only see and sense some of it. But when i feel like this then i see myself getting into a solipsism view. where they say that the only world is the one being known in DE and nothing else is truly real. For example someone being killed on the other side of the world isn't really real. and i agree its not real in my DE but i don't know if i can say that that is totally not real.

I’m sure you’d agree that the "world" is a creation of language, and words are the building blocks that create the story about it, give THIS a meaning. Emptiness does not mean nothingness. Meaning isn’t meaningless but empty. There is a huge difference here. You have some Buddhist background so I’m sure you’ve heard “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”. 'Emptiness' is a pointer to mark a distinction between the way things appear to be and the way they actually are – the illusion. The illusion is that there are selves that are separate from the THIS / life / existence, and each isolated self is living their life in a world, which this assumed self is separate from. But in reality, there is only existence, whatever is happening right now. There are no parts, no fragments, there is only undivided existence / life / what IS/THIS. Reality is very simple. Once you see this, you will stop endlessly frustrating yourself by trying to figure out how things are. Just look, what is it that is separate from what is, and trying to figure out how things are and how things should be?

Yes i can see the simplicity that truly reality only is what it is when it is. i guess this answers my just above question, ill just look at what is in-front of me. I wont worry about what it means when people say that reality is an infinitely evolving fractal holon of gods mind, ill just look instead. Look and be with whatever is happening. That feels most natural. I think its my ego that just wants to figure out how things are and how things should be, its an amalgamation of story that wants more story to complete its story. but there is no completion, there just is.

Truth or reality is not an idea or a belief. It cannot be grasped by thoughts. It does not need and it is impossible to be understood by the intellect/thoughts. It is inconceivable, ungraspable. And yet, it can be directly experienced.
Is this clear? Or do you need more pointers?

I can see that. i don't think i need any more pointers, unless i do, i'm not sure.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jules

So when i do inquiry or any other type of fun thinking, i can really see that in each moment there is no authority to the thinking, but then i wonder how are there thoughts? and you will say "is there thoughts or only thinking?" and i will say, obviously there is only thinking. but I keep wondering how i'm able to wonder and how i can think about my cat and then my fiance and then the Sea if there is no place for them so arise from.

What is "wondering" in DE (using the senses)? Isn’t it just more thinking? Could you predict the order of the thoughts about your fiancé, cat and sea? Did you know which one will be second? Remember when you were a baby :), did you know what cat is, or sea, even if you saw one? Are the labels necessary for the experience to happen? Thoughts come in various shapes and types - all mental - but they are still concepts, built on other concepts, which, in turn, are built on even more concepts, creating a house of cards in which everything makes sense in the context of the other concepts. Thoughts are self-organising. They stick to each other like matching puzzle pieces (stories about stories).

For a day or two, pay attention to language itself. See how ideas are communicated. See how concepts are built on other concepts, which, in turn, are standing on even more concepts, creating one huge bubble in which everything makes sense in the context of the other ideas.
When the mind sees that all concepts are empty, it no longer needs to focus on thinking so much. Stories about past and future eventually stop playing out. “Shoulds” and “should nots” become less important, and the story becomes transparent. The story does not disappear, but it is seen as empty, not solid, not that serious, and, sometimes, even hilarious.

So to the question can i control thinking and change thinking. I feel like no, because that makes sense right away when i ask and see whats true but then that answer doesn't really add up fully and then doesn't make complete sense, so then I also think yes.

So are you the thinker of thoughts then if you can change them? Again, can you choose to think only happy thoughts (change the unhappy ones)? Why are you here then :)? As you remember with the thought exercises, thoughts either appear randomly, or in a “sequence” (pattern). These patterns are the result of years of conditioning. But does that mean that there is an entity that changes them, or thoughts (content) are self-organising? LOOK!

I think its my ego that just wants to figure out how things are and how things should be, its an amalgamation of story that wants more story to complete its story. but there is no completion, there just is.

Is there an “ego” (character, entity) in any way, or there is only a story about an “I”/ego? Can it really do anything? Can a thought do anything – hear, see, think, taste, smell or sense?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey
I missed something …

I don't know what a world is, i know what this moment is as it arises. But there probably is a world but i only see and sense some of it. But when i feel like this then i see myself getting into a solipsism view. where they say that the only world is the one being known in DE and nothing else is truly real. For example someone being killed on the other side of the world isn't really real. and i agree its not real in my DE but i don't know if i can say that that is totally not real

Solipsism suggests an entity that experiences reality – aware entity, mind, etc. Can you see anything like that? Is ‘being’ separate thing with parts – my being, yours, etc? Can you see a border where “your” being ends and somebody else’s start? Do you experience other people’s being somehow? How do you know that you have a personal being (or you just assume)? Wouldn’t that mean a reference point – a self, something that owns the being? You see this is why we agree to leave all philosophy, teachings, etc. for the duration of the inquiry. We’ve assumed so much our whole lives and we never questioned it. Here we do the opposite – we question everything that we’ve taken for granted. What your thoughts are saying is just another “it shouldn’t be like that, because I don’t like it”. If there is doubt, keep on checking until there is no doubt. Then again, what is doubt? But if thought content is preferred no matter what over what is really here (DE), then little can be done. I can keep pointing with little success.
So LOOK! Is there a "world with objects" or just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and sensing, labelled "world" and "objects"? Labels that point to existing stuff (THIS/whatever is happening) are useful for communication, but do these labels exist intrinsically (as objects)? Remember the apple exercise...
Love
Rali

[Julesdickson]

What is "wondering" in DE (using the senses)? Isn’t it just more thinking? Could you predict the order of the thoughts about your fiancé, cat and sea? Did you know which one will be second? Remember when you were a baby :), did you know what cat is, or sea, even if you saw one? Are the labels necessary for the experience to happen?

wondering in DE is thinking. In the moment i cannot predict what thoughts come next.I will not know the next thought or 3 thoughts down the road. I only know thinking when the thinking is happening. No as a baby its only experiencing reality without label or thought content. Labels are not necessary for experience to happen.

So are you the thinker of thoughts then if you can change them? Again, can you choose to think only happy thoughts (change the unhappy ones)? Why are you here then? But does that mean that there is an entity that changes them, or thoughts (content) are self-organising?

No I am not the thinker of thoughts because i cannot change them their is only change that can change them, their is no "me" involved. There is no reason for a me to be hear because everything is happening on its own.They are self organizing their is no entity that changes them.

Is there an “ego” (character, entity) in any way, or there is only a story about an “I”/ego? Can it really do anything? Can a thought do anything – hear, see, think, taste, smell or sense?

There is only the story about an I and ego. It cant really do anything, only hearing can hear tasting tase ect. When I live my life like this I see no need to do any shadow work or cleaning up, people would say this is spiritual bypassing. i don't mean to bring in concepts or teachings but im just wondering about that aspect of life.

Can you see anything like that? Is ‘being’ separate thing with parts – my being, yours, etc? Can you see a border where “your” being ends and somebody else’s start? Do you experience other people’s being somehow? How do you know that you have a personal being (or you just assume)? Wouldn’t that mean a reference point – a self, something that owns the being?

No being is not a separate thing with parts because i cant find any real borders just ones that are made up story's about a me and an other. I don't experience other people’s being because there is just experiencing. I just assumed that this collection of story and condition is my being i guess but no i have no real proof in DE i only have whatever is that is in the moment of the DE. Yes there is no reference point that can know this or that. there is only knowing in DE.

what is doubt?

Doubt is a thought that happens during thinking, its not a DE it is a mental concept or story. Doubt is not trusting the moment and creating story trying to put a lense what is. What is intuition? Sometimes it doesn't feel like a thought but sensing. I guess it doesn't need to be labeled as "intuition", it can just be sensing and then dropped.

Is there a "world with objects" or just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and sensing, labelled "world" and "objects"? Labels that point to existing stuff (THIS/whatever is happening) are useful for communication, but do these labels exist intrinsically (as objects)?

Yes, sensing however it is manifesting is just called "world" and "object" as labels and for the sake of language and worldly function. I can see that world and object and experience are only labels for sensing. They do not intrinsically exist

[Julesdickson]

What is "wondering" in DE (using the senses)? Isn’t it just more thinking? Could you predict the order of the thoughts about your fiancé, cat and sea? Did you know which one will be second? Remember when you were a baby :), did you know what cat is, or sea, even if you saw one? Are the labels necessary for the experience to happen?

wondering in DE is thinking. In the moment i cannot predict what thoughts come next.I will not know the next thought or 3 thoughts down the road. I only know thinking when the thinking is happening. No as a baby its only experiencing reality without label or thought content. Labels are not necessary for experience to happen.

So are you the thinker of thoughts then if you can change them? Again, can you choose to think only happy thoughts (change the unhappy ones)? Why are you here then? But does that mean that there is an entity that changes them, or thoughts (content) are self-organising?

No I am not the thinker of thoughts because i cannot change them their is only change that can change them, their is no "me" involved. There is no reason for a me to be hear because everything is happening on its own.They are self organizing their is no entity that changes them.

Is there an “ego” (character, entity) in any way, or there is only a story about an “I”/ego? Can it really do anything? Can a thought do anything – hear, see, think, taste, smell or sense?

There is only the story about an I and ego. It cant really do anything, only hearing can hear tasting tase ect. When I live my life like this I see no need to do any shadow work or cleaning up, people would say this is spiritual bypassing. i don't mean to bring in concepts or teachings but im just wondering about that aspect of life.

Can you see anything like that? Is ‘being’ separate thing with parts – my being, yours, etc? Can you see a border where “your” being ends and somebody else’s start? Do you experience other people’s being somehow? How do you know that you have a personal being (or you just assume)? Wouldn’t that mean a reference point – a self, something that owns the being?

No being is not a separate thing with parts because i cant find any real borders just ones that are made up story's about a me and an other. I don't experience other people’s being because there is just experiencing. I just assumed that this collection of story and condition is my being i guess but no i have no real proof in DE i only have whatever is that is in the moment of the DE. Yes there is no reference point that can know this or that. there is only knowing in DE.

what is doubt?

Doubt is a thought that happens during thinking, its not a DE it is a mental concept or story. Doubt is not trusting the moment and creating story trying to put a lense what is. What is intuition? Sometimes it doesn't feel like a thought but sensing. I guess it doesn't need to be labeled as "intuition", it can just be sensing and then dropped.

Is there a "world with objects" or just seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and sensing, labelled "world" and "objects"? Labels that point to existing stuff (THIS/whatever is happening) are useful for communication, but do these labels exist intrinsically (as objects)?

Yes, sensing however it is manifesting is just called "world" and "object" as labels and for the sake of language and worldly function. I can see that world and object and experience are only labels for sensing. They do not intrinsically exist