CW

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poppyseed
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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:31 am

Hi Cheryl
It seems like you enjoyed your walk :). I really like what you wrote. There is lightness there.
My favorite example is "Free beer tomorrow" and tomorrow never comes :)
Hehe, so true! Free beer never comes
You mean it's not my skin that divides me from everything else?! :)
oooh. I'm going to need more time on this one.
There is no inside and outside, but i would like to feel it, grok it.
Those "others" are all appearing right here. (Oh, but where is here?)
Close your eyes. Do you see a border for being? Where does being end?
Now open them. In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. It’s like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.
Image
Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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CherylVT
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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:30 am

Dear Rali,
Do you see a border for being? Where does being end?
No borders to be seen anywhere. Being is everywhere. (if there is a where)

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Seeing, hearing. Seeing, seeing, seeing. Hearing, hearing, hearing.

Thanks Rali,
Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:22 am

Hi Cheryl
Seeing, hearing. Seeing, seeing, seeing. Hearing, hearing, hearing.
Beautiful!
How’s life these days? Is there still seeking? Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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CherylVT
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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:27 pm

Dear Rali,
How’s life these days?
Life is very good
Is there still seeking?
I'm not sure it's seeking exactly. I do trust that Life flows, and "que sera, sera" (a popular song from the 1950s). I still attend spiritual Zoom meet-ups.
Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically?
A couple of questions:

One about the sense of agency.
I don't quite believe "my" sense of agency has departed. I've never been much of a controlling personality, and an insight from age 28 was "You can't lose control if you don't have it (in the first place)." Still, there's a sense that my actions can affect the flow. Though quite often, i'm surprised by which of my actions has an effect. And i now forget which actions i really thought were right and necessary but never came to pass.

Of course, were they "my" actions? and did the other person follow up just because "i" pointed "them" in that direction?
(It is fun to be an occasional spiritual matchmaker. :) I pointed one of our meditation center's teachers-in-training toward a sutta study group, which he loves. I pointed the other teacher-in-training toward the Finders Course, which really worked for her.

Right there, in the "i pointed"--is that the sneaky sense of agency?

My other question is about positivity:
As soon as i sit down to meditate, a feeling of positivity arises. I used to call it object-less metta, but that is too narrow a description. Happiness, love, joy, gladness--everything.

I play with it, experiment with it. Can i spread it through my body? Where are the boundaries? How far does it extend? What happens when i imagine bringing the latest irritating person into the marinade of positivity? [Poof. The irritation doesn't survive.]

In DE, the sensation would just be sensation. It feels good, pleasant--a thought. And then it's more thoughts and sensations from there.

Your thoughts?

Thanks, Rali.
Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:25 pm

Hi Cheryl
Thank you for your honesty! When the core belief has been busted, a lot of other beliefs will still be hanging around. What you want to do at this point is LOOK and LOOK again. Keep your eyes open, let the beliefs come to the surface. Keep looking. They will come up one by one ready to be examined and released. Don’t fight them. Hold on to nothing. As soon as you start holding on to beliefs and ideas, you get stuck - you feel right about something and feel like you have an opinion. To unstick, just let it all fall off. That means question everything you are certain about. It may take a few months to settle in, but everyone is different, so there is no way to know how long it will take for everything to be re-examined. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it’s gentle, but there is no finish line, only falling deeper and deeper into peace. Looking is the tool that has to be used over and over again. “Crossing the gate” is only the beginning of a long integration and re-evaluation. All this old conditioning has to be seen for what it is. The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself. If fear appears, it just shows that there are areas that have not been examined and need to be explored with DE.
One about the sense of agency.
I don't quite believe "my" sense of agency has departed. I've never been much of a controlling personality, and an insight from age 28 was "You can't lose control if you don't have it (in the first place)." Still, there's a sense that my actions can affect the flow. Though quite often, i'm surprised by which of my actions has an effect. And i now forget which actions i really thought were right and necessary but never came to pass.
Of course, were they "my" actions? and did the other person follow up just because "i" pointed "them" in that direction?
(It is fun to be an occasional spiritual matchmaker. :) I pointed one of our meditation center's teachers-in-training toward a sutta study group, which he loves. I pointed the other teacher-in-training toward the Finders Course, which really worked for her.
Right there, in the "i pointed"--is that the sneaky sense of agency?
Well, let’s LOOK! What is an action in DE (senses)? Was there any agency that pointed these other “people” in a direction – what did it look like? Did it speak? The proverbial cause and effect seem like a very good candidate for an explanation, with a thought claiming ownership of the “decision”/what is happening/thought. Did you somehow plan the thought “this could do him/her good” (was this ‘your’ thought? What made it yours?) or did it just pop on its own? Could you somehow predict that it will pop up? What exactly was your agency here? All that you are reporting here is thought content, can you see that?
You might find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3
There is an old saying in Zen: “In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.” What do you think it means?
My other question is about positivity:
As soon as i sit down to meditate, a feeling of positivity arises. I used to call it object-less metta, but that is too narrow a description. Happiness, love, joy, gladness--everything.

I play with it, experiment with it. Can i spread it through my body? Where are the boundaries? How far does it extend? What happens when i imagine bringing the latest irritating person into the marinade of positivity? [Poof. The irritation doesn't survive.]

In DE, the sensation would just be sensation. It feels good, pleasant--a thought. And then it's more thoughts and sensations from there.

Your thoughts?
First of all, what is positivity and what is negativity? Are these intrinsic to experience or just labels? Does positive experience have a universal meaning for all? What makes ‘positive’ experience better than ‘negative’? Better for who? There is a need of a reference point.
Is it just possible that during meditation there’s less thought content and more DE? Does negativity exist without thought content? What is an “irritating person” in DE?
Also, are you looking for freedom from unwanted feelings? If so, it’s not how it works (FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT). The freedom is to experience all, good, bad, and the ugly, without judgement that it’s wrong. The key is to realize that shoulds and should nots are the very things that make for a distorted view. Peace eventually comes with not minding what happens.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:46 am

Dear Rali,

Oh. So just return to DE (or never leave it :).
What is an action in DE (senses)?


sensation, seeing, hearing, maybe a thought, though more often now actions happen spontaneously--without pre-thought (or without being aware of thought).
Was there any agency that pointed these other “people” in a direction – what did it look like? Did it speak?
no agency. According to the Vimeo, a later thought claims the action as "mine." Ha!
The proverbial cause and effect seem like a very good candidate for an explanation, with a thought claiming ownership of the “decision”/what is happening/thought. Did you somehow plan the thought “this could do him/her good” (was this ‘your’ thought? What made it yours?) or did it just pop on its own? Could you somehow predict that it will pop up? What exactly was your agency here? All that you are reporting here is thought content, can you see that?
Do i know what any next thought is going to be?
Cause and effect is a thought.
Is any thought "mine"? No. Thoughts appear. I cannot predict any thought.
Hmmm. What is agency?
Yes, i see that agency is just another thought.
Bye-bye thought.
“In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.” What do you think it means?
Mountains are seen as objects, as other (with me as the subject assumed). Then I am one with the mountains. Then mountains are mountains again, but I am not I.
First of all, what is positivity and what is negativity? Are these intrinsic to experience or just labels? Does positive experience have a universal meaning for all? What makes ‘positive’ experience better than ‘negative’? Better for who? There is a need of a reference point.
Positivity and negativity are labels, not intrinsic to experience.
Positive experience does not have a universal meaning.
Positive is generally seen/felt to be pleasant; negative as unpleasant. Although negativity can be pleasant to some people :) (I speak from experience.)

Is it just possible that during meditation there’s less thought content and more DE?
This mind is quiet-ish. Often, when i look, it's quiet, though i know it was just thinking not very long ago. During meditation, the mind is about the same amount of quiet, i would guess.
The positivity (the word i am using in lieu of "love") is sensation (somewhere around the heart area), thought (this is pleasant), sensation, thought, etc.
Does negativity exist without thought content?
Ha! Negativity does seem to require thought content. Hmmm.
What is an “irritating person” in DE?
sensation, thought, sensation, thought, repeating. In addition there may be spinoffs of thoughts about the thoughts. Ai-yi-yi. A tangle of sensation, thought, sensation, thought.
Also, are you looking for freedom from unwanted feelings?
As far as i know i am not looking for freedom from unwanted feelings. Although i tend more toward "thinking" than "feeling", i am at ease with deepening into "negative" emotions, thanks to some deep therapy work in my 30s.

Thanks again, Rali,

Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:55 am

Hi Cheryl
Very good!
Positive is generally seen/felt to be pleasant; negative as unpleasant. Although negativity can be pleasant to some people :) (I speak from experience.)
See! What is ‘pleasant’ and ‘unpleasant’? Are they universal?
The positivity (the word i am using in lieu of "love") is sensation (somewhere around the heart area), thought (this is pleasant), sensation, thought, etc.
Love has many forms and shapes. It is easier to be seen with the positive, but it can be seen with the negative too. It is not just a happy, joyful, expanded feeling, it is also the dark, horrible, scary, sad etc. It is everything. The intensity of the feeling is the intensity of love. Love burns through all conditioning. If it is showing up as darkness, that too is love, in disguise. It is a gift too. Unconditional love is unbound, it’s what is being felt with no conditions. Love is what you feel. In the end it’s all about loving what is. If you are saying ‘no’ to reality, love feels like resistance, like tension, suffering. It may feel silly or even funny, but welcoming everything that comes up is key. Kindness, openness, gentleness, compassion, softness, honesty, and love are door openers. When pushing stops, allowing begins. There is so much love everywhere! Only thought seems to prevent this from being seen. All the heart wants is to love. It can love freely, but the mind keeps it “safe” from possible hurt. Sometimes it offers protection just in case, without examining if that protection works for the good or only creates more tension. The heart is at peace when it’s expanded, limitless, condition-less— when it loves what it loves and enjoys the feeling of it. Can you see what I’m saying?

Is there anything else that you want to explore?
Love
rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:08 am

Dear Rali,
What is ‘pleasant’ and ‘unpleasant’? Are they universal?
Pleasant and unpleasant are not universal. I love olives, and my sweetie dislikes them.

Can you see what I’m saying?
Yes. Love works in mysterious ways. And one of those mysteries to me is the love manifesting in Ukraine or the love in the form of the former president of my country. I am confident that "love is in the air, all around and everywhere" (a disco song of 1978).
Is there anything else that you want to explore?
That's all i can think of for now.

Thank you Rali for all your pointers and pushes.
Love
Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:30 am

Hi Cheryl
Is there anything else that you want to explore?
That's all i can think of for now.
So would you say you are ready for the final questions?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:37 pm

Dear Rali,

(Drum roll.)

Yes, i am ready for the final questions.

Suspense. (thought, sensation, sensation, thought)

Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:54 am

Hi Cheryl
Awesome! Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:42 am

Hi Rali,

I’m flying to the U S today, arriving home tomorrow, so I won’t answer the questions for another 36 hours.

Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby poppyseed » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:57 am

No worries! Take your time with these!
Love
R
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:20 pm

Dear Rali,

1)
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No separate self. No me. No i. No mine.
Never was. Never will be. Of course, there is no “was” nor “will be.”

That's it for now.
Cheryl

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Re: CW

Postby CherylVT » Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:40 am

Dear Rali,
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is projected by the language of I, me, mine—language which requires a subject and an object.
The separate self seems to have agency or control. Someone tells me to raise my hand; I raise my hand.
The I stakes its claim on the flow of Life like drawing a line in water.

When my granddaughter was 6 or 8 months old (in 2001), I held her in front of a mirrored wall in her living room and said, “Look there. There’s Chloe!” At the same time, I was thinking, “So this is how selfing begins.” (That and many other ways.) Our parents project a self on us, and eventually we believe it.

People call me Cheryl, so I assume there’s a Cheryl here. (Where is here?) Here, inside this skin, the skin being the boundary between me and everything else. They say that babies are one with their mothers, one with the world around them, but slowly, the separation of me and other is inculcated.
At first, children refer to themselves as their name—in the third person. “Cheryl wants….” Later, it becomes “I want….”

Ah, the miracle of the word “No,” when small children begin to exert their will. No is a powerful word, a word of resistance to what is.

For much of my adult life, I assumed my self, “I”, was a very particular collection of habits and patterns. “I am a person who…” likes the color blue, had asthma as a child, lives in Vermont, etcetera, etcetera. I believed that “my” personal collection of patterns differentiated me from the other 6 or 7 billion people on the planet and defined “me.” (Ha!)
Eventually I met the “Who am I?” question, and, although I didn’t particularly like the question, I began to rethink those answers of “I am a person who….”

As question #5 intimates, the self coalesces around decision, intention, choice, free will, and control. The self seems to have agency. Only by looking closely, deeply does the assumed self evaporate. Oh. The self is only a thought?

Where does the I reside in the body? If I say, “I. I. I,” where do I feel it?
“I” used to feel like it was in the body, in the head. Now, I can’t find it.

For everyday purposes, I still use the words I, me, mine.


Does the illusion of separate self begin with thought? I, me, mine.

When the mind is quiet, there seems to be no selfing. No past, no future. No ego-building.
As I mentioned above, the self begins with language, which requires a subject and an object. Since at least half of my thinking is in words, yes, the self begins with thought.

love,
cheryl


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