I'm done with suffering and the human experience

[Matt]

Hi, I totally hear that! This is radical for the whole body-mind system.
It definitely seems this is calling for easing off and being really gentle with yourself. It's not productive to push too hard.

If you need more personal support at any point (not saying that you do), it's of course upon you to seek that out from local professionals.

But let's drop the intentional looking for a little bit and see what happens. Give the system some comfort, rest and ease. Let me know how it goes, OK?

Best wishes

[Matt]

Here are resources that other guides have provided when fear comes up. I know "fear" and "panic" are not always the same thing, but both are not uncommon manifestations in this process

Ilona Ciunaite (co-founder of Liberation Unleashed) recorded a video to listen to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

And here's a common method that some guides have recommended which could help during the arising of "panic" or "anxiety":

This exercise focuses a person in the present, and within a part of the brain that cannot 'do' anxiety. Basically, go through each sense perception that is arising and say (or think) "I see/ hear/ feel/ taste/ touch ______________...." A minute or two of each and anxiety is often gone.

EXAMPLES:

I see the couch.
I see the keyboard.
I see the glass. Etc.

I hear the train.
I hear the keys clacking.
I hear my breath. Etc.

I feel the couch under my butt.
I feel my fingers on the keys.
I feel the cold air. Etc.

I taste a metallic taste in my mouth.
I taste the coffee.
I taste the food. Etc.

I smell the humidity in the air.
I smell my husband's shampoo.
I smell the soap. Etc.

The guide who recommended this says, "As far as I can tell, the only time this doesn't work is when someone won't do it." :o)

[Matt]

Hi, how was taking a little break?

If you're ready, let's move from "looking" to "seeing"....
In other words, there's nothing new about not having a real self; it has always been the case and you've been fine.
The mind said, ""How can there not be a me?!" with confusion. But it's already the fact, and it's already seen clearly. Just as the mind could do its job before, the mind can do its job now. Same conditions, exactly.

Notice the difference between

"I see the couch."
"I see the keyboard."
"I see the glass."

and the actual experience as it is:

"The couch is seen."
"The keyboard is seen."
"The glass is seen."

Do you see how the latter is truer? Do you see how it has always been true?
Does anything therefore need to change?

Best wishes, happy new year

[Matt]

Hi, Andrew, are you ready to start working again?
Some people suddenly see when they take a break. I'd like to know how it was to let go of intent looking.
If you're still on board, please respond to my last post when convenient.
If you want to quit, let me know that as well, please.
Best wishes

[2plus2is5]

Thank you! I enjoyed the break ! But I am definitely back!

I've been trying out the sentences and will report back

Thank you for your messages

[2plus2is5]

Notice the difference between

"I see the couch."
"I see the keyboard."
"I see the glass."

and the actual experience as it is:

"The couch is seen."
"The keyboard is seen."
"The glass is seen."

Do you see how the latter is truer? Do you see how it has always been true?
Does anything therefore need to change?


I see that. Nothing needs to be changed, apart from language . Language is reinforcing and creating a fake I. Like when I cook something well and people give me compliments it feels good

[Matt]

Language is reinforcing and creating a fake I.

• Does language really create a fake 'I', or does it just seem as if it creates a fake 'I'?

If you would, please do this exercise from Ilona Ciunaite:

There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced. Just this. Always now. If you want to test this, simply do this little experiment that won't even take much of your time. All you need is 20 minutes, a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.

Like this-
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?


• In this moment, knowing and sensing that 'I' is just a label and not an entity, is language creating a fake 'I'?

[2plus2is5]

That was a beautiful exercise. Thank you.

I have done this before but had more contractions in the past.
I just did it now. Here is my report:-
The first 10 mins seemed ridiculous to use the I when things were clearly happening without a doer. It was seen to be more ridiculous and obvious how the I THOUHHT wants to claim everything. Haha.

The 2nd 10 mins was really beautiful. I saw how everything is changing constantly. Belly rumbles, sounds from outside . Constantly changing. I saw that the mind (thoughts) can create an overlay to create a different version of now . But this exercise showed how it was to live without the thoughts on top of the now .

I found the 2nd 10 minutes truer.
What is here without labels? Direct experience
Labels just describe it.

Is language creating a fake I? No, it is trying to describe something. But it is a false description

Really enjoyed this exercise

[Matt]

Nice.
Do you have Facebook? Easiest way to share an image here as far as I know:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=564 ... 1961362739
Only when I'm not looking directly at the center picture, does it "move". When I look intently at it, it is clear: it's not really an animated image. It is not really moving.

Now, when I look away, my senses can still be tricked! Therefore, the illusion stays in play. However, I have an irreversible knowledge of its actual nature. I can no longer believe that it's animated.

Now I can enjoy the amazing illusion for what it is: An illusion. A still image.

Look intently at what you take to be 'yourself'; is it really a separate self entity at all? No, it is seen that there are just thoughts, sensations, images and associations creating the illusion of a separate self entity.

When you stop looking, your senses can still be tricked! The illusion of a separate self continues, however you now know what it is, and even enjoy it.

[2plus2is5]

Thabk you yes I do have Facebook and I enjoyed the picture..

This metaphor makes sense! Excuse the pun!

I will stay alert.

Last night I was on the balcony and I had a thought "I want to be self realised". Then another thought "who wants to be self realised?" Then I freaked out slightly. The next morning I asked again "who wants to be self realised ? There was less freaking out . And then I asked "who is freaked out?. No one!
So yes I have hundreds of "i"s and they are being challenged by themselves!

I keep going

All the best

[Matt]

Thanks!
The following quiz won't be graded! :-)
Short essay question :o)

• What do you think of this part:

When you stop looking, your senses can still be tricked! The illusion of a separate self continues, however you now know what it is....

• Here's a little math problem to answer :-)
It doesn't matter if you have millions of illusory "I"s, does it?
0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 (up to millions of zeros) = exactly ____

And please answer Yes or No:
• Has there ever been a real separate self, in any shape or form?

[2plus2is5]

When you stop looking, your senses can still be tricked! The illusion of a separate self continues, however you now know what it is....

Yeh I understand what is it trying to say. Thouughts sensations etc creating illusion of separate self. Its an illusion but I don't SEE in te looking part to begin with. What am I looking at? Life? The present moment? Obviously when it is SEEN then there is no going back. But I don't think I have SEEN. THE Illusion is strong

Millions of zeros = zero

And please answer Yes or No:
• Has there ever been a real separate self, in any shape or form?
No. but from my own experience the illusion of separate self persists. This is me being honest. I'm not trying to be negative or anything what I'm hearing again is "its already the case ". There never was one. But an illusion is an illusion and by that sense its a strong one. I was driving on the motorway and I thought "without thoughts there is just this ". But I had a huge narrative and internal world going on about being late to drop the hire car off, I was barely present . "Without thoughts there is just this " which I find pretty cool. But then thoughts and sesantiins come back and draw the attention . Its really annoying this game haha. God it is annoying . Very annoying . I can't wait to SEE - says another thought

Best wishes

[Matt]

"Seeing" means (on this forum) seeing the absence of self. That could be described as Life, etc., no problem.

I'm trying to break this to you gently :o) ...The illusion of self doesn't go away; you just see that it's empty. You could have a very strong zero, but it's still zero. It doesn't matter if it stays or not.

• Is the illusion of a separate self that is experienced right now an actual self?

Seeing no-self has occurred for you many times now, based on your reports of looking for one. Every valid experiment has brought the same results. The data is in.

• How many times did you find zero self at this point? How much proof is needed? How much data needs to be collected?

• If you keep looking for a self, do you believe that you'll eventually find one? Maybe the 6,000 time you look there will be a real self there, in addition to the illusion?

[2plus2is5]

so its about realising that this is already the case.

i guess the issue is, the mind movies, and also the desire for freedom from suffering.

almost like the desire to be free of suffering is keeping me from being free of suffering.

There was never and is not a separate self. that is pretty cool. of course there isn't

[2plus2is5]

Do thoughts have any value or clout at all?

I woke up this morning and the mind was saying "if there is no on here, and I'm not in control , then what is there for me to do. It was almost giving up. But it was resistant to be redundant and it was worried about having no job

I know that is all thought and there is no mind . But I found it interesting (which was another thought haha)